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GottIstGutig

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I'll be honest, digital modulation is nice, crisp and clear, but I'm not real impressed with it. A county close to me just went P25 $8 million... they had an almost perfect analog system, now they're having tons on problems with the portables in buildings. What's everyone else feel on P25?
 
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N_Jay

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GottIstGutig said:
I'll be honest, digital modulation is nice, crisp and clear, but I'm not real impressed with it. A county close to me just went P25 $8 million... they had an almost perfect analog system, now they're having tons on problems with the portables in buildings. What's everyone else feel on P25?

Did they change bands?
Did they change sites?

There is much more to a system design that Analog vs. Digital.

Who did the design?

Did they have a consultant, or just trust the vendor?
 

Voyager

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N_Jay said:
Did they have a consultant, or just trust the vendor?

Boy, is THAT a loaded statement. So, no vendor knows anything about system design? While I agree that is true for some, I certainly wouldn't make a blanket statement out of it.

Joe M.
 
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N_Jay

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Voyager said:
N_Jay said:
Did they have a consultant, or just trust the vendor?

Boy, is THAT a loaded statement. So, no vendor knows anything about system design? While I agree that is true for some, I certainly wouldn't make a blanket statement out of it.

Joe M.

You read much between the lines, Young one!

I was just asking the question?????
 

MacombMonitor

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GottIstGutig said:
I'll be honest, digital modulation is nice, crisp and clear, but I'm not real impressed with it. A county close to me just went P25 $8 million... they had an almost perfect analog system, now they're having tons on problems with the portables in buildings. What's everyone else feel on P25?

They're having "Digital Growing Pains"! The State Of Michigan went through this for a long time. Now that we have towers all over the place, things are settling down a little. However, they still run into similar problems everytime they add another county, or city. The solution, more towers! Not much different from cell phones when you think about it.
 

Thayne

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Look on the bright side, even tho it doesn't work as good:

1. Progress

2. Gives the economy a boost to build & keep up the new infrastructure

3. Gives Njay something to keep his mind occupied, and keyboard
clicking

4. Gives the public servants something to ***** about

5. Makes it harder for scanner nuts to listen

8)
 
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N_Jay

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MacombMonitor said:
GottIstGutig said:
I'll be honest, digital modulation is nice, crisp and clear, but I'm not real impressed with it. A county close to me just went P25 $8 million... they had an almost perfect analog system, now they're having tons on problems with the portables in buildings. What's everyone else feel on P25?

They're having "Digital Growing Pains"! The State Of Michigan went through this for a long time. Now that we have towers all over the place, things are settling down a little. However, they still run into similar problems everytime they add another county, or city. The solution, more towers! Not much different from cell phones when you think about it.

"Digital Growing Pains" or "800 MHz Growing Pains"?
 

MacombMonitor

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N_Jay said:
MacombMonitor said:
GottIstGutig said:
I'll be honest, digital modulation is nice, crisp and clear, but I'm not real impressed with it. A county close to me just went P25 $8 million... they had an almost perfect analog system, now they're having tons on problems with the portables in buildings. What's everyone else feel on P25?

They're having "Digital Growing Pains"! The State Of Michigan went through this for a long time. Now that we have towers all over the place, things are settling down a little. However, they still run into similar problems everytime they add another county, or city. The solution, more towers! Not much different from cell phones when you think about it.

"Digital Growing Pains" or "800 MHz Growing Pains"?

Warren Michigan has had a Motorola 800MHz Type-II Trunked system for quite sometime. It's non digital, and seems to work quite well. I think because it was installed properly to begin with.
 

seamusg

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Warren Michigan has had a Motorola 800MHz Type-II Trunked system for quite sometime. It's non digital, and seems to work quite well. I think because it was installed properly to begin with.
Warren has trouble on the South end around 8 mile and Van Dyke(White Ways).
 
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nmfire10

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GottIstGutig said:
OK, from UHF to 800 MHz, they had a consultant... here read the article:

http://www.monroenews.com/articles/2005/07/14/news/news01.txt

Umm. This is the article you just linked to.
news01.jpg

Jessica Wahl is not surprised with the Harry Potter hysteria.

"It's a great read. You find yourself getting really into it. ...

[Moderator Edit: Most of quoted article removed, we got the idea, we didn't need to see the entire article. See post below for actual article.]
 

Arvetus

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The digital trunked systems operate the same way the Nextel 2-way's operate. It's the same type of technology with a few differences here and there. That's all I'm gonna say about that :lol:
 

loumaag

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Here is the proper article which is moving around the site.
Please note I just copied it and did not attempt to correct the spelling. :lol:
Motorola ready to work on 800 MHz system - 07/14/2005
Technicians an dengineers are investigatings problesm reported with the radio system.

arogers@monroenews.com

By ANDY ROGERS


Motorola technicians and engineers have begun to investigate reported unsatisfactory performance of the county's new $9 million digital 800 MHz emergency radio system.

The communications firm began its investigation Wednesday after several company officials met with Monroe County project coordinators and state communications administrators in Monroe.

"They want to look at some of the antennas and amplifiers on the (Dunbar Rd.) tower, so they are actually going to have people go and climb the tower to check and see if there is anything wrong with them," Monroe County Sheriff's Office Lt. David Thompson said this morning. He has coordinated the 800 MHz project for Monroe County. "We might have had a lightning strike that they're not aware of," he said.

The Dunbar Rd. tower is a concern because of coverage complaints inside the City of Monroe. On Tuesday, Monroe police Chief John Michrina told county commissioners that the system has been a disappointment and that his officers cannot communicate with dispatchers from inside downtown buildings - a major safety concern.

Monroe County Fire Chiefs Association President Jerry Welton also expressed concern over the system's performance at Tuesday's county board meeting. He asked to be part of Wednesday's meeting with Motorola, but was told he could not participate by Monroe County Board of Commissioners Chairman Jerry Oley.

"This was an operational meeting that was already prearranged with Motorola and the participants who were going to be a part of this," Mr. Oley said this morning. "With such short notice there was no way I could've contacted those individuals to inform that we were going to have other people invited to this meeting. I felt it would have been unfair to them (to bring additional people into the meeting."

Mr. Oley said Mr. Welton would be invited to participate in future meetings.

At the meeting Motorola was advised of coverage issues in southern Monroe County in addition to the problems in the city. Communications in Erie and Bedford townships, mainly along the Lewis Ave. corridor, has drawn criticism from public safety officials working in that area.

"We've been working on that issue even before yesterday's meeting," Lt. Thompson said. Motorola told county officials it will send a team to investigate whether high tension power lines in the problem areas or local cell phone towers are causing interference.

"That may be an issue, it may not," he said. "We don't know but they could affect transmissions."

Most of the immediate action by Motorola will be to identify the problems causing the communications failures. From there the firm will develop a plan to correct the shortfalls.

"You have to identify what the source of the problem is and once we do that, then we can develop solutions that we can look at to try and correct the problems," Lt. Thompson explained.

Motorola has developed a solid record of fixing problems with the county's new radio system, according to Lt. Thompson. When the system went live in December, some radios could not communicate at all. Motorola brought in an engineer who was able to determine the problem was with how the radios were programmed. Once the programming glitch was corrected, radio performance improved.

Another issue developed in the northwestern area of the county where radio signals were poor. State officials worked with Motorola to review the layout of equipment at the Dundee tower site and made some minor adjustments that improved performance dramatically, Lt. Thompson said.

"Those are two issues that we've identified in the first six or seven months of operation and Motorola and the state have responded and fixed them," he said.

No future meetings with Motorola will be scheduled until trouble shooting of the system is complete, according to Lt. Thompson. The work Motorola is doing to determine the problems is not going to cost the county any additional money.

"There is no additional cost here," he said. "Motorola wants to identify the problems and look for the solutions and improve the coverage for us."
 
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N_Jay

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http://www.monroenews.com/articles/2005/07/14/news/news03.txt

What a way to run a web site! :evil:

Links should be as stable as posible.

I hope news03 does not change, but I am sure it will. :roll:

Also try th eseach results

http://www.monroenews.com/shared-content/search/index.php?search=go&o=0&l=&s=&r=&q=radio

This is the CORRECT article referenced

800 MHz complaints - 07/13/2005

County commissioners listen to details of radio problems

By ANDY ROGERS


arogers@monroenews.com


Monroe County officials say they plan to hold Motorola, the company that designed, built and tested a new $9 million emergency radio system, accountable for apparent problems in the system's performance.


A host of area officials Tuesday night told the Monroe County Board of Commissioners that there are real and significant flaws with the design and performance of the new digital 800 MHz emergency radio system as well as the upgraded fire department paging system. Some even renewed their efforts to have the county hire an outside consultant to go over Motorola's work.



A meeting between county officials and Motorola is scheduled for this week.



Some of the worse coverage problems appear to be in the City of Monroe. Portable radios - the units that are actually carried by officers - cannot emit a strong enough signal to overcome weak coverage, according to police Chief John Michrina.



"This has been a huge step backwards," Chief Michrina said. "We went from a system that was clear and consistent that could almost be heard anywhere, anytime. I have trouble thinking of instances when this regular system failed us to a system where as soon as you go into virtually any of the buildings downtown, any houses - it's not just the courthouse, it's not just the jail - it's all over the place, you are out of communication.



"It's wonderful that we can go to Pontiac and call here, but the problem is our police officers don't call for help from Pontiac. They call for help inside someone's house or maybe in a basement or a building downtown to get that emergency assistance and its just not working."



The system works fine with more powerful car-based mobile radios, Chief Michrina said.



The countywide system passed a coverage test performed by Motorola last winter, meeting statistical contractual obligations. The problem, however, is that while some failure is acceptable under the contract between the county and the communications firm, it seems all of the system's failures are in concentrated areas, county board Chairman Jerry Oley said.



"The biggest problem with this entire system is that where the shortfalls are at, they're all together in one pile," Mr. Oley said. "So, when you have a problem in the City of Monroe, it affects substantially the City of Monroe … and when you have five officers in the area and you can't hear them, that's a problem. We were never told by Motorola that that's what we were going to discover."



Monroe County Sheriff's Office Lt. David Thompson, who has coordinated the entire radio system project, said he is aware of the coverage issues in Monroe and also in southern Monroe County along Lewis Ave.



County officials are scheduled to meet with high-level Motorola representatives today to talk about the performance issues.



Options to boost the 800 MHz system's performance may include the use of repeater devices in emergency vehicles, construction of at least one more radio tower or partnering with Lucas County, Ohio, to place Monroe County equipment on one of its towers.



Monroe County Fire Chiefs Association Chief Jerry Welton also addressed the board, testifying to the poor performance of the VHF paging system that is meant to be used in conjunction with the 800 MHz communications system. Paging performance has been especially poor in the western and southern portions of the county, Mr. Welton, Luna Pier fire chief, said. He attributes the problem to the unplanned shutdown of a VHF tower in Ida.



Lt. Thompson confirmed the tower is not being used. The county does not have the appropriate Federal Communications Commission (FCC) license to operate it at optimal levels, he said. Attempts to get the appropriate licensing have brought objections from neighboring municipalities, including Lenawee County.



Monroe County Central Dispatch Director Ronald Berns said he would explore the possibility of operating the Ida tower within the limits of the county's current FCC license while Lt. Thompson searches for a frequency that will not spur objections.



Mr. Welton, however, urged the board to consider hiring a consultant to look at the paging problems and propose possible solutions - something he had asked the board to do before the system was even designed.



"I'm sorry but that did fall on deaf ears because some of the tings that we were trying to explain to the board at that time was speculation, I agree, but now the proof is in the pudding," he said. "The same things that we asked you to be concerned about are happening with the system now, whether it be VHF or the 800."



The VHF paging performance is a separate issue from the 800 MHz coverage issues, Lt. Thompson said. Options to fix the VHF problem include finding a new paging radio frequency or convincing other municipalities to drop their objections, he said.



Using a new frequency, however, would add even more cost to the paging system because some fire department use pagers that cannot be reprogrammed, Mr. Welton argued. Those firefighters would need new pagers that cost about $360 each, according to Lt. Thompson.



Mr. Oley said the county will work as diligently and quickly to solve the problems, saying the system has performed well in some areas, but has not met expectations in others.



"I hold Motorola accountable for the system and I'll be part of the meeting (Wednesday)," Mr. Oley said. "We've taken a lot of comments from people here and those comments are going to be addressed right back to Motorola with the expectations that they fix the project that they put together, that they sold to us, that they assured that it would work."



Commissioner Dale Zorn, however, is in favor of hiring a consultant to review Motorola's work, but did not press the board to take action Tuesday, saying that it appeared he would not have enough support to push it through.



"We've already spent $8 million or more to the vendor to give us this system and obviously there's some problems and I believe that we would be better off to have a consultant tell us what the fix is going to be rather than the vendor that sold us the system that knows they are going to sell us some more equipment," he said.



Lt. Thompson reminded the board that the system is new and that there are always issues when new radio systems are first put into service.



"It's not going to get solved overnight," Lt. Thompson said. "All of this stuff takes time."
 
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N_Jay

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Arvetus said:
The digital trunked systems operate the same way the Nextel 2-way's operate. It's the same type of technology with a few differences here and there. That's all I'm gonna say about that :lol:

LOL.

Hmmm, really, I did not know that. :roll: :roll:

Different modulation
Different vocoder
Different control channel structure
Different network architecture

Well they are both "Digital" :roll:

That makes them the same! :wink:

Glad you said " That's all I'm gonna say about that!" Cause any more would have been even more enlightening! :twisted:
 

Al42

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N_Jay said:
Voyager said:
N_Jay said:
Did they have a consultant, or just trust the vendor?

Boy, is THAT a loaded statement. So, no vendor knows anything about system design? While I agree that is true for some, I certainly wouldn't make a blanket statement out of it.

Joe M.

You read much between the lines, Young one!

I was just asking the question?????
I'm not - I've had experience with only 2 vendors (GE and Motorola) and neither one seemed to care whether communications worked - only whether the radios they supplied worked.

In both cases, I was lucky enough to have gotten them to sign onto performance contracts, so it was their problem. (Same system - Motorola took over after GE decided that it was cheaper to forfeit the performance bond than to make the system work.)
 
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