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APX APX non-affiliated scan help

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Jparks2093

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Alright, so I just recently got an APX 7k and was able to program the conventional channels I want without issue. For context, I'm an EMT and being able to scan my local sheriffs office, who's on a p25 phase II trunked system would be extremely helpful. I was able to successfully program a NAS on a harris xg-100p, but I've heard it's significantly harder and riskier to do so on an APX. There doesn't seem to be any concrete instruction on how to do this, and I've only found one youtube video. If anyone's able to help me (and all the people like me in the future) out, and give me a proper tutorial I'd REALLY appreciate that. If someone also just wants to help me program it, or do it for me I'm more than willing to slide some cash in your direction.

I'm currently on CPS version r29.01 and have programmed it using that.

Thank you in advance!
 

Baker845

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If you work for EMS service, someone that's chief officer would be able to help, you get in contact with radio person you are looking for. Other wise, you would have to get hold of the undersheriff or sheriff. If you call someone at sheriff office , they should be able to get radio system mangers contact info for you.
 

MTS2000des

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I have two large private ambulance services on my system. They know how to get a hold of me. None of them have law enforcement talk groups for a reason: their not cops. If one wants to "listen", I encourage them to buy a scanner from Uniden, Whistler, or a Unication. No way I'd be giving out system information for one to put into anything with a transmitter. That is a great way to get fired.
 

APX8000

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I have two large private ambulance services on my system. They know how to get a hold of me. None of them have law enforcement talk groups for a reason: their not cops. If one wants to "listen", I encourage them to buy a scanner from Uniden, Whistler, or a Unication. No way I'd be giving out system information for one to put into anything with a transmitter. That is a great way to get fired.
Question: Are the LE talkgroups you are referencing ENC ? I'm guessing not since you're telling them to buy a scanner. So my follow up question is....what's the big deal if you program it with AG/TG Disabled if they are a legit subscriber ? If you're just the system admin I get it, go talk to the Sheriff and get permission....But I still don't get the whole LE stance of "you can't listen to us with your legit subscriber even though our channel is in the clear."

I just recently had lunch with the Director of a large City PD. They use a State trunking system, well County tied into the State's core. He mentioned that a certain three-letter Agency requested access to their talkgroup and he said how he didn't want the Feds listening in. I started laughing and said 1) you're paranoid and 2) you're talkgroups are blasted all over Broadcastify. He had no idea that Joe Blow could listen and he's blocking the unnamed.
 

MTS2000des

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Question: Are the LE talkgroups you are referencing ENC ? I'm guessing not since you're telling them to buy a scanner.
Some are, some are not.
. So my follow up question is....what's the big deal if you program it with AG/TG Disabled if they are a legit subscriber ?
Because they have approved templates, signed off on by their bosses that want their radios that way. From a service provider perspective, we don't want a gazillion "one off" codeplugs as it makes for headache when it comes to managing 8,000 radios across 31 agencies. The others side of it is what you said, the other agencies on the system require authorization for cross programming, generally LE talk groups are only in LE radios, with some exception for folks like fire investigators (who are also certified law enforcement here), but those "one offs" are few and far between and with authorization from the agencies. The whole RX only is moot, the decision makers (chiefs, division chiefs, etc) call the shots, they are the one signing agreements to be on the system and we respect their wishes as they write the checks that pay our bills.

The bottom line is if one who doesn't have a business need to have any given talkgroup, it's not in their radio. If one wants to listen to everything in the clear, we encourage them to buy a scanner, use Broadcastify, etc.
No radio technician, manager or administrator is going to discuss, encourage or assist private persons into programming any trunked subscriber hardware, at least no one that cares about their long term employment. If one figures out how to do it, fine- but don't expect anyone with integrity to openly give out info on the network, CPS/RSS/KPG whatever, how to bypass system keys, etc. Not gonna happen and that's why one is told to "buy a scanner". No one ever got fired, indicted, or imprisoned for programming one either.
 

MTS2000des

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I just recently had lunch with the Director of a large City PD. They use a State trunking system, well County tied into the State's core. He mentioned that a certain three-letter Agency requested access to their talkgroup and he said how he didn't want the Feds listening in. I started laughing and said 1) you're paranoid and 2) you're talkgroups are blasted all over Broadcastify. He had no idea that Joe Blow could listen and he's blocking the unnamed.
Interesting, because I have FBI, ATF and ICE on my system. All have their own dedicated encrypted talk groups and we created Federal mutual aid talk group range. They have access to just about everything dispatch related law wise, and our agencies were grateful to give them permission. I guess we aren't paranoid about the Feds like that. They do all their own programming of their subscribers. We trust them. They aren't whackers with ***** parts radios cobbled together off Ebay either.
 

KE4ZNR

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Some are, some are not.

Because they have approved templates, signed off on by their bosses that want their radios that way. From a service provider perspective, we don't want a gazillion "one off" codeplugs as it makes for headache when it comes to managing 8,000 radios across 31 agencies. The others side of it is what you said, the other agencies on the system require authorization for cross programming, generally LE talk groups are only in LE radios, with some exception for folks like fire investigators (who are also certified law enforcement here), but those "one offs" are few and far between and with authorization from the agencies. The whole RX only is moot, the decision makers (chiefs, division chiefs, etc) call the shots, they are the one signing agreements to be on the system and we respect their wishes as they write the checks that pay our bills.

The bottom line is if one who doesn't have a business need to have any given talkgroup, it's not in their radio. If one wants to listen to everything in the clear, we encourage them to buy a scanner, use Broadcastify, etc.
No radio technician, manager or administrator is going to discuss, encourage or assist private persons into programming any trunked subscriber hardware, at least no one that cares about their long term employment. If one figures out how to do it, fine- but don't expect anyone with integrity to openly give out info on the network, CPS/RSS/KPG whatever, how to bypass system keys, etc. Not gonna happen and that's why one is told to "buy a scanner". No one ever got fired, indicted, or imprisoned for programming one either.

100% the above. As my System Manager says to our various agencies: "We manage the radio system itself but the talkgroups are YOUR real estate and YOU decide who has access to your channels. We will assist in template creation & programming but only those you have agreements with will have YOUR talkgroups in their radios."
 

N4DES

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Interesting, because I have FBI, ATF and ICE on my system. All have their own dedicated encrypted talk groups and we created Federal mutual aid talk group range. They have access to just about everything dispatch related law wise, and our agencies were grateful to give them permission. I guess we aren't paranoid about the Feds like that. They do all their own programming of their subscribers. We trust them. They aren't whackers with ***** parts radios cobbled together off Ebay either.
Ditto with 598 with the exception of active dispatch talk-groups. Have had the Fed's on for a long time, starting when they had APX7K's, and they still prefer to be on the simulcast vs their own, especially the Fugitive Task Force. There is active key sharing and NLEC reserved CKR's that we use so when they OTAR they don't overwrite existing County keys.

I provided them with the base codeplug that they can drag and drop and a restricted (but not write protected) ASK so they can't make any programming mistakes. Before I retired they had upwards of 600 active ID's amongst the DHS and DOJ LE divisions.
 

AK9R

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From a service provider perspective, we don't want a gazillion "one off" codeplugs as it makes for headache when it comes to managing 8,000 radios across 31 agencies.
This.

I was once in a position of having a county-issued radio that was loaded with a one-off codeplug. It was a PITA keeping my radio current with all the system changes. The system admin eventually threw up his hands and "commonalized" the codeplugs. It wasn't the best situation for me, but I understood that I was just one small piece of the puzzle.

The bottom line is if one who doesn't have a business need to have any given talkgroup, it's not in their radio.

I wonder how much of this philosophy is driven by chiefs who believe that their people should "stay in their lane". I've been in situations where people did not stay in their lane and it usually increased, not decreased the confusion. And, if your issued radio is off scanning other talkgroups or agencies, what's the chance that you'll miss a call on your own talkgroup?
 

MTS2000des

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I wonder how much of this philosophy is driven by chiefs who believe that their people should "stay in their lane". I've been in situations where people did not stay in their lane and it usually increased, not decreased the confusion. And, if your issued radio is off scanning other talkgroups or agencies, what's the chance that you'll miss a call on your own talkgroup?
This is much to do with it I am sure. Command staff want their people on their job, not meddling in someone else's and being "offline" when they are called. We limit scan in end users radios to what command staff wants: if they say NO SCAN, than it is. Like KE4ZNR said, we cater to those who make the decisions, not the end users wants. The reason we password protect all codeplugs is existence of many Internet posts of unauthorized programmers trying to dick with their issued equipment. Radios used in public safety aren't hobby toys and like any issued equipment, it should only be manipulated by authorized persons with full documentation of what is requested and done.
 

ElroyJetson

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The principles of NAS on P25 Phase II trunking are exactly the same as NAS on any other version of trunking of the "Motorola flavors". No different. You just need to have the appropriate features in the radio and the other things we don't talk about much.....

I STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST ATTEMPTING IT. HERE BE DRAGONS.

You want to PLAY in a public safety environment. That is intrinsically risky.

It's not something I'm even willing to do MYSELF, and I've got several decades of experience.

I have chosen NOT to obtain an APX because Harris radios are much easier to employ as "safe" scanners.
Even then it's not to say that it's exactly an unrestricted path. Harris has its own access restriction issues to deal with,
but at least RPM, RPM2, and the radios have true receive only functionality built right into them.

For scanning, I choose and recommend Harris. That's coming from me, a (moderately) notorious Moto Fanboi dating back to the early 80s and the old Batlabs board days.

The APX is a fantastic radio for public safety usage. Or if you actually have need for a transmitter. But if you only want it for a scanner,
get a Harris XL instead.
 

northstarfire0693

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Harris is much better and easier to program for scanning. Moto can be done but is a pain and more risk. I love my APX, but use my Harris more.
 

Jparks2093

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Okay, so, I should clarify. This is not my issued radio. My agency issues us baofengs, but strongly encourages us to purchase our own radios. The guy who programs the baofengs is just our chief. We're a pretty small rural agency covering about 3400 square miles. I used a harris xg100p for a while, but the RX and TX power are worse than the baofengs, so I got my moto. Been using it on our VHF conventional net without issues. I'm looking to be able to scan SO so I can tell what's going on when we're responding to calls where, either they requested us, or we're on a stage away/psych call. This is a want, not a need, I can live without having a NAS for sheriffs, it'd just be convenient

Again, this is a personally owned radio, NOT issued equipment
 
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MTS2000des

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I'm looking to be able to scan SO so I can tell what's going on when we're responding to calls where, either they requested us, or we're on a stage away/psych call. This is a want, not a need, I can live without having a NAS for sheriffs, it'd just be convenient
Is this a "rural thing" because at my PSAP/ECC, fire/EMS stages until WE INSTRUCT THEM the scene is safe and that's the decision of the LE officer/commander who arrives on scene and makes it secure. We don't self-dispatch at any of our agencies so they don't need to be listening to the po-po anymore than the fire guys want CopSounds™ blasting out of their radio. In fact, they find ways to SILENCE radios and alerting hardware in the station so much so we had to put the alert controller and associated hardware in locked NEMA enclosures.

Just interesting to hear how people do it. As far as NAS, as I said, you are on your own. Those of us who manage systems frown upon unauthorized subscribers on systems. Can it be done? Yes. But if one has to ask or expects spoon feeding, a scanner or Unication really is a better option.
 
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