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APX7000 - 2X P25 systems. 1X SYS ID & WACN

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c_lewien

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Australia
Good afternoon,

I've ran into quite a strange one whilst programming my APX for non affiliated on a P25 system and unable to figure out why its doing it.

** Overview/Information **

* System 1 - UHF Phase 1 P25 system.
* System 2 - VHF Phase 1 P25 system.
* Both systems have the same Home SYS ID & WACN ID.
* System 1 tower with active TGID's is within 3km of location. System 2 tower is within 15km.
* Testing was conducted on top of a hill to ensure complete coverage.
* Each system in radio was corresponding channel ID plan setup

System 1 with multiple agency TGIDS works fine in the APX

System 2 has recently been added but receiving nothing at all. I have made sure "validate against NAC is unticked" and also that "Full Spectrum Control Channel Scan" is unticked due to the fact of the same system ID's and not wanting it to lock onto system 1 being it contains the same system ID's.

System 1 (which works) - Metropolitan Mobile Radio (MMR) Trunking System, Statewide, Victoria - Scanner Frequencies
System 2 (which doesn't) - Regional Mobile Radio (RMR) Trunking System, Regional Victoria, Victoria - Scanner Frequencies

Would anyone know of something I've missed?

Appreciate your time.

Regards,

Cameron
 

rescue161

KE4FHH
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I am not familiar with that system, but in all of the multicast trunking systems that I am familiar with, a legit user has to be affiliated to a tower before traffic is routed to that same tower. If you are listening to a near by tower on a talkgroup that no legit user has affiliated to that same tower, then you are not going to hear anything on that talkgroup on that tower.
 

hitechRadio

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Never used Non-Affiliated trunk scan.

But Question?
Why are you programing them as separate systems?
 

hitechRadio

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And why shouldn't one use the non-affiliate trunk scan method?? It works, it's "safe" and is easy enough to do.

Regards,

-Frank C.
Read again....Never said that one should NOT use non-affiliated trunk scan. ( I will call N-ATS)

I was just asking "Why are you programing them as separate systems?" I did not know if it was do to using N-ATS.
As I said, I have never used N-ATS so wasn't sure if that was the reason.

In an authorized radio/subscriber you could program them as one system. Assuming the two systems (if they are separate) are either A: using same core/s or B:Interzone or C: etc...
So we are clear...I don't know the details of that particular system/s design, however both are using same Sys-ID (although same Sys-ID does not even matter technically).
An Astro-25 core does not care what band the sites are.
I guess the real question I have is, although different organizations, why the systems are shown in the database separately? When they appear to be one of the same.

I am also assuming that the site/s are broadcasting there neighboring sites UHF and/or VHF. But I have never logged there system.

Safe easy enough to do, that's debatable? ... not for some as it appears from the many threads concerning this subject.:) But I have never used N-ATS so what do I know.
 
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c_lewien

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Location
Australia
Never used Non-Affiliated trunk scan.

But Question?
Why are you programing them as separate systems?
Thanks for the reply.

They are programmed separate because they are actually two separate P25 networks.

System 1 = MMR network which is UHF.
System 2 = RMR Network which is VHF

Different agencies use different systems but for some strange reason they share the same WACN & SYS ID.

We had a discussion about it last night on another forum who suggested just programming the closest RMR site's voice freqs into a conventional personality - I received this P25 voice fine so obviously the radio isn't liking something in the trunking system or personality.

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxYrbG2TAs0
 
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franks_ham

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Read again....Never said that one should NOT use non-affiliated trunk scan. ( I will call N-ATS)

I was just asking "Why are you programing them as separate systems?" I did not know if it was do to using N-ATS.
As I said, I have never used N-ATS so wasn't sure if that was the reason.

In an authorized radio/subscriber you could program them as one system. Assuming the two systems (if they are separate) are either A: using same core/s or B:Interzone or C: etc...
So we are clear...I don't know the details of that particular system/s design, however both are using same Sys-ID (although same Sys-ID does not even matter technically).
An Astro-25 core does not care what band the sites are.
I guess the real question I have is, although different organizations, why the systems are shown in the database separately? When they appear to be one of the same.

I am also assuming that the site/s are broadcasting there neighboring sites UHF and/or VHF. But I have never logged there system.

Safe easy enough to do, that's debatable? ... not for some as it appears from the many threads concerning this subject.:) But I have never used N-ATS so what do I know.
Fair enough, but after reading some very well done articles, including from our own Elroy, programming Type II and now P25 is as easy as slicing pie! I'd still say it's pretty safe too, since it's only a butter knife being used. ;)

Regards,

-Frank C.
 

hitechRadio

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Messages
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Fair enough, but after reading some very well done articles, including from our own Elroy, programming Type II and now P25 is as easy as slicing pie! I'd still say it's pretty safe too, since it's only a butter knife being used. ;)

Regards,

-Frank C.
Thanks, that is good to know!:)
 

KevinC

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Thanks for the reply.

They are programmed separate because they are actually two separate P25 networks.

System 1 = MMR network which is UHF.
System 2 = RMR Network which is VHF

Different agencies use different systems but for some strange reason they share the same WACN & SYS ID.

We had a discussion about it last night on another forum who suggested just programming the closest RMR site's voice freqs into a conventional personality - I received this P25 voice fine so obviously the radio isn't liking something in the trunking system or personality.

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxYrbG2TAs0
How do you know which site the radio is on? I'd suggest programming it as "Coverage Type- None" and populate the RFSS and site number with the site you hear conventionally and see what happens.
 

hitechRadio

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
472
Thanks for the reply.

They are programmed separate because they are actually two separate P25 networks.

System 1 = MMR network which is UHF.
System 2 = RMR Network which is VHF

Different agencies use different systems but for some strange reason they share the same WACN & SYS ID.

We had a discussion about it last night on another forum who suggested just programming the closest RMR site's voice freqs into a conventional personality - I received this P25 voice fine so obviously the radio isn't liking something in the trunking system or personality.

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxYrbG2TAs0
If not currently connected currently, I am willing to bet the systems will be eventually.

I would double check you Astro 25 Channel Id's, they must be correct.

Can you post a pic of both systems Astro 25 ID lists?
 
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immelmen

Member
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Jun 13, 2007
Messages
377
Thanks for the reply.

They are programmed separate because they are actually two separate P25 networks.

System 1 = MMR network which is UHF.
System 2 = RMR Network which is VHF

Different agencies use different systems but for some strange reason they share the same WACN & SYS ID.

We had a discussion about it last night on another forum who suggested just programming the closest RMR site's voice freqs into a conventional personality - I received this P25 voice fine so obviously the radio isn't liking something in the trunking system or personality.

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxYrbG2TAs0
what is your system search time set to and what is the order of the talk-groups in you scan list with respect their associated personalities control channels. scanning two different trunking systems is a compromise at best even in a radio that is legit on both systems.

when you turn on your radio and start scanning, it will look to see which personality is associated with the first talk group in the scan list is. It will then look up and scan the control channels of that personality and, upon finding the strongest signal in that list, proceed to sit on that control channel listening for channel grants for any talk group in the scan list that is part of the SAME PERSONALITY. it will do this for the duration of the system search time. if it sees a channel grant for a scan list member it will switch to that channel and monitor the convo....when the convo is over, the radio RETURNS to the SAME control channel and the system search time is reset and starts over.

IF/When the Sys search time expires the radio will proceed to the next talk group in the system and repeat the process.

...So, if you have your scan list set up with all of the system 1 talk-groups in a row, followed by the system 2 talk groups at the end and your system search time is set to something high, you will likely miss most traffic on system 2. If system 1 is more busy than system 2 it will compound the problem, as will having more sys 1 TGs than sys 2 TGs.

I would suggest arranging the scan list members so that each successive one is part of a different personality and set the system search time to something low.

and, as someone else mentioned, if your channel assignment page is not perfect nothing in that trunking personality will work at all.
 
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APX7000 - 2X P25 systems. 1X SYS ID & WACN

So on the system that is working correctly, can you display a site and/or RSSI (on the radio)?

The reason I ask, supposedly the latest APX firmware removed the ability for APX radios to perform a non-affiliate scan. So if the two systems are in fact using two cores, you could potentially affiliate to one (which may not have good access restrictions) and not to the other (with good access restrictions).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

c_lewien

Member
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Messages
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Location
Australia
So on the system that is working correctly, can you display a site and/or RSSI (on the radio)?

The reason I ask, supposedly the latest APX firmware removed the ability for APX radios to perform a non-affiliate scan. So if the two systems are in fact using two cores, you could potentially affiliate to one (which may not have good access restrictions) and not to the other (with good access restrictions).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for all the replys - I will reply to all the others this evening (stuck at work at the moment)

I'm still using the non affiliated method fine on the UHF P25 system (Can't display site or RSSI)
 

c_lewien

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Australia
** Update **

Adding the complete UHF/VHF CID resolved the issue. I'm now receiving both the UHF & VHF systems.

*Setup now*
System 1 - Complete CID plan with just the MMR Network (UHF) control channels.
System 2 - Complete CID plan with just the RMR network (VHF) control channels.

Thank you to everyone who assisted - I really appreciate it.

Regards,

Cameron
 

VicradioZone

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Messages
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Location
Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA
Different agencies use different systems but for some strange reason they share the same WACN & SYS ID.
Hi Cam,

Just a reply to your above comment.

Nothing strange about them using the same WACN and SYS ID. It's that way because of 'the grand plan' of things to come and which is already occurring in part.

The last change to the CID matter changed a few months ago. It's undergone several changes since the RMR Network was first commenced. Handy asset Pro96com.


Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 
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