APX7000 P25 Multi-Band Radio

[chrismol1]

looks nice
I cant wait for new models of motorolas to take over the old MTS line or whatever ele older motorola models

 

[chet-]

Here in LA without T-band UHF its worthless. What else can I say.

Chet
K6CRB

 

[citylink_uk]

Sorry, but didn't anyone read the bit in the APX PDF about the frequency bands?

 

[wa8pyr]

No UHF = Fail :lol:

Concur. However, the Thales does not offer analog or digital Smartnet/Smartzone (ie, 3600 baud) trunking, which for many areas will be a serious drawback. There are lots of those systems still out there, which means that the Liberty is limited to analog or P25 conventional for interoperability in those areas.

OTOH, the Moto does offer Smartnet/Smartzone with the lack of UHF being the tradeoff.

Guess those of us in public safety / local government communications can't win.... yet. Hope springs eternal.

 

[N4DES]

Me however- I would like to have an Apex portable for:

800Mhz Smartnet type II for where I work.
VHF for 2m HAM TX and a heap of fire and rescue services receive only.

Throw in FPP to truly make it sweet!.

Commscanaus.

Ditto!

 

[gesucks]

Not True

No they didn't forget UHF, what everyone is missing is the APX meets the TIA receiver specs. The Liberty does not. /\/\ could have easily added UHF but would have lost globs of sensitivity, and selectivity. The reason its 7/8/VHF is those were the easiest to impliment first. You will see UHF in 2010 or 2011 most likely.

The Liberty meets TIA CLASS A SPECS across all bands.

 

[ffexpCP]

Thales Liberty is not the only one, there is a similar muntiband, multi mode by Harris.

 

[N4DES]

If I remember corretly one of the drawbacks to the Harris is that it comes with 3 individual antennas based on the band of choice. This probably would have some merits when it comes to performance, but you have to carry & remember to change antennas when switching bands. Not user friendly for the non-technical.

I haven't done too much research on the 3, but I wonder if they are capable of receiving multiple bands at one time, similiar to a lot of the dual-band ham rigs. Anyone know?

 

[Cowthief]

Thales.

Hello.

The Thales radio operates on one band at a time, no dual receive.
This is not a problem, as the radio can switch bands instantly.
A dedicated antenna is a great improvement on the Thales Liberty, as what comes with the radio is an improved dummy load.
This is true of most if not all multiband talkie antennas.
That Motorola thing looks odd now, but could easily be the future of talkies to come.
On the Thales side, all bands but lowband, P25 conventional, full support for both P25 as well as other forms of encryption.
On the Moto' side, VHF or UHF plus 700/800, no 900 support, P25 and type I,II,IIi trunking, P25 as well as several forms of Moto encryption.
The Thales tactical radio (military) has support for up to 2 extra encryption modules and in this manner can do Motorola encryption by inserting a Moto module.
It is not known at this time if the Liberty has this also.

 

[zz0468]

No they didn't forget UHF, what everyone is missing is the APX meets the TIA receiver specs. The Liberty does not. /\/\ could have easily added UHF but would have lost globs of sensitivity, and selectivity. The reason its 7/8/VHF is those were the easiest to impliment first. You will see UHF in 2010 or 2011 most likely.

I suspect the real reason this was introduced is because of some specific contracts requiring 700/800 AND VHF. Riverside County, CA's $150 million dollar project comes to mind. When a project comes along that requires UHF, you'll see it come out.

And NOW you know why Motorola bought Yaesu.

 

[Cowthief]

Motorola non-servicable?

Hello.

If what I am being told is correct, the Motorola radio is not intended to be serviced.
This may be one sealed unit, with no way to get to the boards.
Not that this is all that bad, as servicing is now all but impossible anyway, custom IC and other parts that are priced out of the reach of economical servicing is now the norm.

 

[prcguy]

If your referring to the Thales PRC-148 MBITR as taking Motorola encryption modules, it does not. The radio can be supplied with various encryption formats including Type 1, DES, HAVEQUICK, SINCGARS and even P25, but much of this is done in software not hardware. Some Racal/Thales made PRC-148 style radios were sold by Harris without Type I encryption but do have Harris Citadel encryption and frequency hopping as an added option, but no extra slots for Motorola modules.

Harris now markets a public service version of their PRC-152 hand held that covers 30 to 512MHz continuous, but no 700/800 band.

The stock 13" long antenna supplied with the PRC-148 works very well on VHF air through UHF and is usable for short range down to 30MHz. I have personally seen the stock antenna make a 100mi + contact @ 50MHz (that's 50MHz, not 150MHz!) from a hill near Los Angeles to a hilltop near the Mexico border, and that ain't too shabby.
prcguy

Hello.

The Thales radio operates on one band at a time, no dual receive.
This is not a problem, as the radio can switch bands instantly.
A dedicated antenna is a great improvement on the Thales Liberty, as what comes with the radio is an improved dummy load.
This is true of most if not all multiband talkie antennas.
That Motorola thing looks odd now, but could easily be the future of talkies to come.
On the Thales side, all bands but lowband, P25 conventional, full support for both P25 as well as other forms of encryption.
On the Moto' side, VHF or UHF plus 700/800, no 900 support, P25 and type I,II,IIi trunking, P25 as well as several forms of Moto encryption.
The Thales tactical radio (military) has support for up to 2 extra encryption modules and in this manner can do Motorola encryption by inserting a Moto module.
It is not known at this time if the Liberty has this also.

 

[Cowthief]

Thales AN-PRC-148-au-d (Or later).

Hello.

True, the earlier Thales radios can not accept any encryption modules, but,,.
The radio has had a major redesign since that time.
Now, the Thales military talkie can do USB as well as serial, and since the new logic board is smaller, a place for encryption modules.
Motorola and Thales were going at it, as the very first Thales radios could do Motorola encryption in firmware only, and Motorola was at odds with this.
The only reason for doing encryption in modules, and only the US and Canada models are equipped this way, is a legal one, the "foreign" models do pretty much all of the standard encryption and trunking.
As far as the Motorola radio goes, the Military version , non-FCC type accepted, does 40 to 550 MHz without any gaps, but of course is not TIA approved.
This is not called the APX7000 or anything else for that matter, it is undergoing testing at Ft Gorden Ga.
But, in essence, the same radio.
And, FPP makes the radio no longer FCC approved, one of the requirements is that the radio not be user reprogrammable.
Right now, Motorola is having issues with how the antenna interfaces with the radio.
Thales holds the patents on the active steering antenna, why Thales can supply one antenna and everyone else has at least 3.
Other than that snafu, the Motorola radio could be a 6+ band radio.
Once this is ironed out, the Motorola radio is expected to be a 136 to 175 MHz, 380 to 550+ MHz, 700 to 900 MHz, beast.
Note that this may be split into ranges, that is the maximum projected range for all variants combined.
The military model, not limited to pesky details like spectrum purity, can do much more.
Remember, quite a few military radios do not meet spectral purity for even the amateur bands.
Amateur radios are not noted for the receivers, why they pick up so much noise.
The Civil Air Patrol, like just about every federal entity, now must follow the new NTIA narrow band rules, so the new radios are much "Tighter" now.
Even the USCG aux now needs to use FCC approved radios on the AUXNET, but need not follow the more stringent NTIA requirements.
Marine radios are about the only place where a 30 year old radio is allowed.
Even Aviation has been hit.
The new radios do some really wild channel splits, and that is now mandatory.
So, it is not just getting the APX7000 working, it is getting it working under the new narrow band rules, and that means some real work in the receiver, while still allowing the thing to work in the older modes.
From 25 KHz spacing to 12.5 KHz spacing to 6.25 KHz spacing, all in one radio.
Remember, the Military models do not need to do 6.25 KHz spacing and meet TIA specs, just work.
That is if 6.25 spacing is even an option.
But, that is the complex nature of the world we live in.
Remember, this all started with NextHell and rebanding.
Facts be known, rebanding has just about bankrupted Nextel.
Sprint is none too happy right now.
But, 700 MHz, in effect an extension of 800 MHz, and new narrow band radios, as well as multi-band radios?
I am a happy camper.

 

[prcguy]

When you say "motorola encryption" what are you referring to? DES as used in Motorola radios is an open source algorithm and no license is needed to implement.

What do you mean by the Thales "active steering antenna"? The PRC-148 MBITR does not use or interface with an active antenna, the antennas are just inherently broad band and work on any radio within their frequency limits. Harris uses the same basic antennas on their 30-512MHz PRC-152 series.

Both the Thales and Harris military radios are programmable in 100Hz steps throughout their entire range, no problem doing 6.25KHz, 5.0KHz or other steps.
prcguy

Hello.

True, the earlier Thales radios can not accept any encryption modules, but,,.
The radio has had a major redesign since that time.
Now, the Thales military talkie can do USB as well as serial, and since the new logic board is smaller, a place for encryption modules.
Motorola and Thales were going at it, as the very first Thales radios could do Motorola encryption in firmware only, and Motorola was at odds with this.
The only reason for doing encryption in modules, and only the US and Canada models are equipped this way, is a legal one, the "foreign" models do pretty much all of the standard encryption and trunking.
As far as the Motorola radio goes, the Military version , non-FCC type accepted, does 40 to 550 MHz without any gaps, but of course is not TIA approved.
This is not called the APX7000 or anything else for that matter, it is undergoing testing at Ft Gorden Ga.
But, in essence, the same radio.
And, FPP makes the radio no longer FCC approved, one of the requirements is that the radio not be user reprogrammable.
Right now, Motorola is having issues with how the antenna interfaces with the radio.
Thales holds the patents on the active steering antenna, why Thales can supply one antenna and everyone else has at least 3.
Other than that snafu, the Motorola radio could be a 6+ band radio.
Once this is ironed out, the Motorola radio is expected to be a 136 to 175 MHz, 380 to 550+ MHz, 700 to 900 MHz, beast.
Note that this may be split into ranges, that is the maximum projected range for all variants combined.
The military model, not limited to pesky details like spectrum purity, can do much more.
Remember, quite a few military radios do not meet spectral purity for even the amateur bands.
Amateur radios are not noted for the receivers, why they pick up so much noise.
The Civil Air Patrol, like just about every federal entity, now must follow the new NTIA narrow band rules, so the new radios are much "Tighter" now.
Even the USCG aux now needs to use FCC approved radios on the AUXNET, but need not follow the more stringent NTIA requirements.
Marine radios are about the only place where a 30 year old radio is allowed.
Even Aviation has been hit.
The new radios do some really wild channel splits, and that is now mandatory.
So, it is not just getting the APX7000 working, it is getting it working under the new narrow band rules, and that means some real work in the receiver, while still allowing the thing to work in the older modes.
From 25 KHz spacing to 12.5 KHz spacing to 6.25 KHz spacing, all in one radio.
Remember, the Military models do not need to do 6.25 KHz spacing and meet TIA specs, just work.
That is if 6.25 spacing is even an option.
But, that is the complex nature of the world we live in.
Remember, this all started with NextHell and rebanding.
Facts be known, rebanding has just about bankrupted Nextel.
Sprint is none too happy right now.
But, 700 MHz, in effect an extension of 800 MHz, and new narrow band radios, as well as multi-band radios?
I am a happy camper.

 

[WayneH]

Ok, ok, lets get back on topic please.

 

[Cowthief]

Thales, Harris, active antenna.,

Hello.

The Thales and Harris antennas are indeed active.
https://secure.thalescomminc.com/cart2/tcDesc.asp
Prior to the SINCGARS program, the radios had a tuning unit in the base.
Take a look at an AN/VRC-12 unit.
The AN/PRC-25 and AN/PRC-77 have a mechanical tuning unit in the radio.
The reason for this is the fact that a monopole can not work such a range.
If this was the case, one would not need to have a tuned antenna, but, be it talkie or mobile, some means of tuning is needed.
And, call it what you want, Thales calls it an "Active antenna".
Harris calls it an "Active antenna".
The patent is held by Thales, part of the French/UK consortium at the time.
Amazing as it must sound, Motorola had license but sold it as part of its military division, to Harris.
So, now that we have covered the simple stuff, the details.
There are several ways of doing a tuned antenna.
The easiest, and most effective, is to cut the antenna to 1/4 of the frequency.
Why 1/4? this provides a 55 +- ohm load and is resonant.
A 3/4 wave antenna will also work, but be not quite 50 ohms.
So, lets say the antenna is a 1/4 wave at 50 MHz, X 3 = 150 MHz, and a 3/4 wave, figure on a slight velocity factor loss and you have 147 MHz, good enough for 2 meters.
Now, to increase bandwidth we can do several things.
One is to make the antenna wider, the classic stovepipe antenna.
A Discone takes advantage of this also.
A discone need not be a solid unit, but can be just the outline, a run of rods works fine.
But, stovepipe or discone, it is just not going to work on your talkie.
So, another trick, we add a coil to the base, this makes the antenna a longer antenna, as the coil of wire adds to the circuit.
Now, if we add a switch and short out the coil it is shorter.
Roller or switch inductors in antenna tuners do this very task.
Fine up to a point, but, SINCGARS radios actually jump from channel to channel a bit over a hundred times a second in an almost random order, a switching circuit would have to be very fast, and there is a bit of loss in the coil of wire, our inductor.
So, we put the switching circuit IN the antenna.
EZ, right? you can only guess as to how it works.
Remember the flashing antennas for cellphones that run on nothing but the power of the transmitter?
http://www.101cells.com/flasan.html
Well, the antennas work in much the same way, except in place of a flashing delight we have an antenna that does something else.
Ever seen the lizards that change colors?
The trick a lizard uses is is a bunch of colored dots that can expand and contract.
The antenna works in somewhat the same way, but again, RF and not light.
So, there is a lot more going on inside that antenna than meets the eye.
It is clearly not just a monopole.
But, do your own research, the ARRL antenna handbook is an excellent start.
http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?category=Antennas,+Transmission+Lines+&+Propagation
Sorry if this seems a bit long winded.
My hopes are that there is a greater understanding of antennas and radio in general.

 

[prcguy]

I was hoping cowtheif had some new interesting info but it appears much of his postings are pure BS. I use MBITRs on a regular basis and have available all antennas sold by Thales for this series, so my comments on these items are from first hand knowledge, not speculation. Everyone in the industry knows these antennas are not active and have a fairly simple passive matching network in the base. Everyone in the industry also knows that Motorola sold its military radio division to General Dynamics, not Harris.
I applaud your hopes of better understanding radios and antennas in general but please stop posting fantasies as facts. Sorry for not contributing much to the original post.
prcguy

Hello.

The Thales and Harris antennas are indeed active.
https://secure.thalescomminc.com/cart2/tcDesc.asp
Prior to the SINCGARS program, the radios had a tuning unit in the base.
Take a look at an AN/VRC-12 unit.
The AN/PRC-25 and AN/PRC-77 have a mechanical tuning unit in the radio.
The reason for this is the fact that a monopole can not work such a range.
If this was the case, one would not need to have a tuned antenna, but, be it talkie or mobile, some means of tuning is needed.
And, call it what you want, Thales calls it an "Active antenna".
Harris calls it an "Active antenna".
The patent is held by Thales, part of the French/UK consortium at the time.
Amazing as it must sound, Motorola had license but sold it as part of its military division, to Harris.
So, now that we have covered the simple stuff, the details.
There are several ways of doing a tuned antenna.
The easiest, and most effective, is to cut the antenna to 1/4 of the frequency.
Why 1/4? this provides a 55 +- ohm load and is resonant.
A 3/4 wave antenna will also work, but be not quite 50 ohms.
So, lets say the antenna is a 1/4 wave at 50 MHz, X 3 = 150 MHz, and a 3/4 wave, figure on a slight velocity factor loss and you have 147 MHz, good enough for 2 meters.
Now, to increase bandwidth we can do several things.
One is to make the antenna wider, the classic stovepipe antenna.
A Discone takes advantage of this also.
A discone need not be a solid unit, but can be just the outline, a run of rods works fine.
But, stovepipe or discone, it is just not going to work on your talkie.
So, another trick, we add a coil to the base, this makes the antenna a longer antenna, as the coil of wire adds to the circuit.
Now, if we add a switch and short out the coil it is shorter.
Roller or switch inductors in antenna tuners do this very task.
Fine up to a point, but, SINCGARS radios actually jump from channel to channel a bit over a hundred times a second in an almost random order, a switching circuit would have to be very fast, and there is a bit of loss in the coil of wire, our inductor.
So, we put the switching circuit IN the antenna.
EZ, right? you can only guess as to how it works.
Remember the flashing antennas for cellphones that run on nothing but the power of the transmitter?
http://www.101cells.com/flasan.html
Well, the antennas work in much the same way, except in place of a flashing delight we have an antenna that does something else.
Ever seen the lizards that change colors?
The trick a lizard uses is is a bunch of colored dots that can expand and contract.
The antenna works in somewhat the same way, but again, RF and not light.
So, there is a lot more going on inside that antenna than meets the eye.
It is clearly not just a monopole.
But, do your own research, the ARRL antenna handbook is an excellent start.
http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?category=Antennas,+Transmission+Lines+&+Propagation
Sorry if this seems a bit long winded.
My hopes are that there is a greater understanding of antennas and radio in general.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Both the Thales and Harris military radios are programmable in 100Hz steps throughout their entire range, no problem doing 6.25KHz, 5.0KHz or other steps.

Tunability in 100 Hz steps is not the big issue with 12.5 KHz and 6.25 KHz radios. That alone is easy to achieve. The problem is getting good communications quality and performance in a narrowband signal.

Nyquist applies. With less bandwidth to work with, the amount of information that can be carried
is reduced. Good codecs and efficient modulation formats are essential when running narrowband.

Even in the simplest, most rudimentary example of narrowband operation, in conventional analog
voice operation, a narrowband signal at its rated deviation level takes more audio gain in the receiver to equal the audio output of a wideband signal operating at its rated deviation level. Companders
are routinely used in narrowband equipment to try to get the audio to something resembling wideband
audio quality.

At 6.25 KHz channels, don't expect much if any analog voice traffic. It'll be all digital, and now you're
looking at a technical nightmare because digital voice codecs have their own bandwidth overhead
requirements which cut into the available bandwidth, and low rate voice digitization is low fidelity
digitization.

At this moment, the best sounding 6.25 KHz equipment on the market is a two-slot quasi-FDMA system that is used by both Kenwood and Icom. It's actually operating in a 12.5 KHz bandwidth, but as two
separate 6.25 KHz signals. I think Kenwood calls it EDGE, and I'm not sure about Icom. I've got some
demo Icom radios at the shop that are capable of working in this mode but I have not yet experimented
with them. It's been pretty busy lately, but if things slow down a little bit soon, I'll take them out,
program them up, and mess with these new operating modes.

Elroy

 

[WayneH]

People do not want to read esoteric, possibly confusing and untruthful posts (I will not name a name).

This topic is about the APX. Stick to it or I'm going to start deleting posts. Go create a thread in the Other forum for the Thales radios.

 

[ElroyJetson]

UHF will be out soon, I'm sure. There are a lot of technical challenges associated with making a radio
that operates from 136 MHz all the way up to 870 MHz in one radio, and the antenna challenges alone
are considerable and not the least of those challenges.

I'm sure that Motorola will produce a VHF/UHF/700-800 version pretty soon. But not before they've got
the bugs worked out and have a reliable radio that works as well as individual radios in each band.

Elroy