are lmr/public safety radios compliant as ....

[scannersnstuff]

are lmr/public safety radios compliant as marine radios ?. i don't want to stray off topic and debate the part about using them on land. i know those rules.

 

[ecps92]

I would say, you need to check the FCC ID and see if they got Part 80 approval

are lmr/public safety radios compliant as marine radios ?. i don't want to stray off topic and debate the part about using them on land. i know those rules.

 

[rapidcharger]

Many of them do. Especially the motorolas. Be sure to check the fcc certification grants for a vhf model. Sometimes the vhf models have it but uhf do not.
To find the place where to look up the id number, Do a search for "fcc oet"

 

[mmckenna]

Most of the newer Kenwood's are, also. The last couple of VHF radio models I've purchased at work, NX-210, NX-700, TK-5210, etc, all had Part 80.

This isn't a blanket thing. Each individual model will have FCC type certification and that needs to be checked on an individual basis.

Legal issues aside, Many public safety agencies around here (near the ocean) all have some Marine VHF in them for interoperability with the U.S. Coast Guard.

 

[PACNWDude]

Motorola PR1500 VHF and Harris Unity XG-100P are Part 80 approved.

My previous employer made sure to get radios that were approved as we were needing to talk the Coast Guard often and had a fleet of ships. Channel 16 on Marine VHF was monitored as well.

 

[ElroyJetson]

There have been cases where contract awards have been successfully challenged due to a vendor offering Part 90 radios to cover Part 80 marine services, which is technically illegal if the radios are not type accepted for both Part 80 and Part 90.

The Coast Guard routinely uses Motorola radios that have Part 90 acceptance on them but the labels don't actually indicate Part 80 acceptance. I guess they can get away with that as the Coast Guard is part of the DOD and is a branch of the military. Different rules apply.

In general, any Part 90 radio WILL pass Part 80 acceptance testing for technical standards, but if it doesn't actually have Part 80 acceptance, it's not technically legal for marine usage by civilians.

 

[Kirk]

Motorola XPR-7550 has a Part 80 cert. I believe the 5550 does as well.

 

[mmckenna]

The Coast Guard routinely uses Motorola radios that have Part 90 acceptance on them but the labels don't actually indicate Part 80 acceptance. I guess they can get away with that as the Coast Guard is part of the DOD and is a branch of the military. Different rules apply.

Yep, different rules, NTIA vs. FCC.
When I was in, we used mostly commonly available marine VHF radios. I think we had Standard brand radios on the bridge. The only "military" stuff we had were the HF radios and a few odd things, like IFF, etc.
Times have changed, though. Mostly XTL's used now. P25, encryption, etc.

And just because I love my former employer, U.S. Coast Guard is under the Department of Homeland Security, not the D.O.D. (except in specific cases regarding wartime). Back in the 90's, we were under the Department of Transportation.
It's also not uncommon for some individuals (armchair warriors/sailors) to challenge the "branch of the Military" statement. If in doubt, you can read here:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title14/pdf/USCODE-2010-title14-partI-chap1-sec1.pdf
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE...2011-title10-subtitleA-partI-chap1-sec101.pdf

 

[scannersnstuff]

thank you all for the overwhelming response. but this leave's me stymied. if a part 90 radio is compliant as a lmr, what interference is it going to cause in the marine radio band ?. or is this the question ?. i can understand not using a amateur radio for a lmr/marine radio. just saying.

 

[SCPD]

Just use it

thank you all for the overwhelming response. but this leave's me stymied. if a part 90 radio is compliant as a lmr, what interference is it going to cause in the marine radio band ?. or is this the question ?. i can understand not using a amateur radio for a lmr/marine radio. just saying.

Geez. Just use the radio.
Part 80. Part 90. Part the Red Sea. Everybody in this thread knows doggone good and well using your commercial radio on the marine band isn't gonna cause any interference or spurious emissions or whatever else you can think of.

I've been using a couple of GP300's for years in a boat. No complaints whatsoever.

 

[mmckenna]

thank you all for the overwhelming response. but this leave's me stymied. if a part 90 radio is compliant as a lmr, what interference is it going to cause in the marine radio band ?. or is this the question ?. i can understand not using a amateur radio for a lmr/marine radio. just saying.

Nothing, really, except that almost all Part 90 radios built in the last few years will not do wide band FM (25KHz) out of the box. Since Marine VHF still uses wide band, this can be an issue.
Most commercial radios do have the capability to still do wideband, but it's not standard.

Of course narrow band FM will work just fine.

Other than that, it's just the type certification and the differences between the Part 90 rules and the Part 80 rules.

 

[n2nov]

Other than the legality/illegality question of certification for the different FCC rule parts, there is a technical difference. As stated above, recent LMR radios are to meet the narrow FM (2.5 khz deviation and 6.25 khz channel separation) standard. Now, why does this matter? Just as in FRS radios and GMRS radios, let's look at what happens when both narrow and standard FM share a channel.

NFM transmitted signal heard on a standard FM receiver = weak audio because of lower than expected deviation.
Normal FM transmitted signal heard on a NFM receiver = very LOUD and DiStOrTeD audio because the higher deviation pops out of the receiver's passband.

There are plans, but no set date, for Marine VHF to get extra channels by making them NFM.
Until that time, we need to use the right radios for the bandplan that we are trying to use.

 

[902]

Nothing, really, except that almost all Part 90 radios built in the last few years will not do wide band FM (25KHz) out of the box. Since Marine VHF still uses wide band, this can be an issue.
Most commercial radios do have the capability to still do wideband, but it's not standard.

Of course narrow band FM will work just fine.

Other than that, it's just the type certification and the differences between the Part 90 rules and the Part 80 rules.

Narrowband probably won't be an issue being received on a wideband radio (might sound like lower received volume), but a wideband radio may pop out of the narrowband radio's passband, especially on a radio that has tight digital filtering. The OP may be able to "buy" an override code in the programming software to open wideband. So, just a recommendation to ask before procuring. With a past employer, we had several small boats we used for river stuff. The boats used to have Midland VHF public safety radios on them, but were later transitioned to XTLs. Most of the time, these radios were kept on either dispatch or VHF-17. Sometimes on VHF-22A. The boats also had a (separate) VHF-FM marine radio and a CB.

The other bummer is hand-keying in all of the frequencies and splits (if used). Don't get one wrong because that's inevitably going to be the one you'll need. Ultimately we bought Icom VHF marine radios, which were already pre-programmed and (forgive the sacrilege) just as good as, if not better than, the non-marine radios. They were certainly smaller.

 

[RBFD415]

Understanding we got a lot of great expert information there about part 80 Vs. part 90- I think I'm left a bit overwhelmed with knowledge!

In simple terms- if we were to compare a "Marine VHF" of any vintage to a LMR radio of say 10 or 20 years vintage, which is to say pre current NFM standards- are there any differences in signal spacing and bandwidth?

Could a 20 year old LMR simply be programed with Marine frequencies and on transmit would we notice any difference?

I understand there may be more differences than just the above items, just looking at the down and dirty function.

As I believe was stated prior, many costal FD and rescue type units had in prior years programed marine channels into their LMR VHF HT and mobiles along with the typical dispatch and operations channels.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Sure, of course. I'm sure that plenty of people programmed marine frequencies into Sabers, MT1000s, even the suitcase programmed first generation programmable radios like the MX-300S. It's possible that people may have had marine channels programmed into their Syntor X or X9000. And they're FINE radios with great specs. From any technical point of view, they'd have met part 80 technical standards if they had been submitted for Part 80 certification and were, at the time of testing, only programmed to the marine channels covered under Part 80.

But a Part 80 radio is ONLY a marine radio. If it has non-marine frequencies in it, it would not receive Part 80 approval. Because that would mean that it transmits out of the marine frequency allocations, which are covered under different regulations.


In reality, if you have marine channels programmed into your part 90 radio and that's what you're using to talk on the marine channels when
on the water, nobody's going to notice or care. If you're using the appropriate channels and engaged in a legitmate maritime activity, then that's all that matters. I have NEVER heard of the FCC handing out a violation to anyone for using a part 90 certified radio in a marine application
and on a part 80 frequency as long as their usage was consistent with the rules governing usage of marine frequencies.

 

[Blindguy]

That is rellly a question that has always puzzled me. If you are transmitting on an appropriate frequency, with an appropriate power level and all procedures and protocols are followed is it possible to determine what make/model of rig are you using?

 

[nd5y]

That is rellly a question that has always puzzled me. If you are transmitting on an appropriate frequency, with an appropriate power level and all procedures and protocols are followed is it possible to determine what make/model of rig are you using?

Probably. Look up "radio transmitter fingerprinting".

 

[Blindguy]

Ah OK, interesting read, thanks. I found some basics on wicopedia..

 

[ElroyJetson]

Yes, transmitters have unique characteristics. There are variations between different transmitter circuits and there are smaller variations between individual transmitters of the same type.

If you have a high resolution spectrum analyzer, you can fingerprint a transmitter with a high degree of accuracy.

I have one spectrum analyzer with a resolution bandwidth of 0.1 Hz. It can pattern a transmitter with great precision, but it takes time to do it. 10 seconds per hertz of analyzed bandwidth, to be exact. So to analyze 10 KHz of bandwidth at .1 Hz resolution takes 100,000 seconds.

 

[ai8o]

The PROBLEM HERE is that part 80 tech specs have to be compliant with SOLAS tech specs which are set by international treaties. This would involve the IMO,the ITU, and probably would have to be done as part of a WARC.

Part The part 90 narrowbanding of the past few years only involved US domestic policy.
The FCC setting new US rules, no international treaty needed to be amended.