are talkgroup id's ever 'repeated' (use the same id on 2 difft systems in the same ar

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dizwiz

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Is there any effort to make certain that 2 systems, in the same geographic area, avoid using the same tg id #?

Especially if both systems are the same type (p25)?

Ex. I have my psr500 set in control channel only mode.....could it pick up cross talk from a difft system? (Wouldn't that be confusing if the difft system also used the same tg id # that I was listenng for?
 

KE5TLF

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Frequencies shouldn't be reused within a relatively small area, unless they are on multiple towers in a simulcast system. Not sure of the exact distance but I'll guess around 75 miles give or take. There is conscious coordination for that aspect of it.

Talkgroups make no difference whatsoever. Systems are designed for their intended users only. Authorized radios of one system, and in turn it's talkgroups, have no knowledge of any other systems they are not programmed for, and thusly no problem with it's talkgroups being the same or not.

Decimal TGID 16 is often the ALL CALL TG on Motorola Type II systems for one fairly common example.
 
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dizwiz

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KE5TLF;1868150 Talkgroups make no difference whatsoever. Systems are designed for their intended users only. Authorized radios of one system said:
Ok good info, but as a scanner listener in an area w/ multiple trunked systems (and using cc only mode), cross talk could occur
 

wa8pyr

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Is there any effort to make certain that 2 systems, in the same geographic area, avoid using the same tg id #?

Especially if both systems are the same type (p25)?

Ex. I have my psr500 set in control channel only mode.....could it pick up cross talk from a difft system? (Wouldn't that be confusing if the difft system also used the same tg id # that I was listenng for?

If the systems are not connected to one another, there certainly could be duplication of talkgroup IDs. However, P25 systems are all designed to connect to one another for interoperability, and with common Radio ID and Talkgroup ID plans in place it would be irresponsible at best for someone to intentionally use a talkgroup ID for a purpose different than on another system.
 

jackj

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Different systems use different Control Channel frequencies as well as different Voice Channels. Your scanner listens to the system's CC and that CC will tell your scanner which frequency the active VC is using. So, even though you only have CC programed into your scanner, you will monitor the correct VC for that system.
 

dizwiz

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Different systems use different Control Channel frequencies as well as different Voice Channels. Your scanner listens to the system's CC and that CC will tell your scanner which frequency the active VC is using. So, even though you only have CC programed into your scanner, you will monitor the correct VC for that system.

Ok. I didnt know this.

I assumed that the only way to ensure you get the 'correct' VC's is to have them programmed in alongside the CC channels for each system.

I assumed CC only mode worked differently. I did not think the scanner knew the exact voice frequency, but rather scanned a huge bank of possible VC's (based on a mathematical formula) and, once it found that TG on a VC, then thats what commanded it to stop on that VC.
 

dizwiz

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If the systems are not connected to one another, there certainly could be duplication of talkgroup IDs. However, P25 systems are all designed to connect to one another for interoperability, and with common Radio ID and Talkgroup ID plans in place it would be irresponsible at best for someone to intentionally use a talkgroup ID for a purpose different than on another system.

Heres what inspired me to create this post.

A couple weeks ago I created a post where I caught an unidentified talkgroup 13344 coming off of OH MARCS franklin county control site (868.4875). I was driving on I-71 just SW I-270 in fayette county (near.

There was a fairly exciting police chase on this channel. I really wanted to identify what agency this was from....But we dont have this listed in MARCS.

Well last night I was driving through toledo listening to NWOH Regional system and caught a brief hit of some voice from the same talkgroup 13344 off of 853.1625. This is the primary control channel of this NWOH Regional system.

I paused on the TG, but unfortunately they didnt talk again. Also, the brief voice they gave me wasnt enough to identify what kind of agency they were (ex. police, fire, road crew, etc.).

At the time I heard this TG, the only system I was monitoring was NWOH Regional.

Is it just a concidence that I heard a TG 13344 on two systems (far apart geographically)? I dont know.

BTW. I did just look at the database (which I thought I had loaded into my scanner for all TG's.. apparently not), and 13344 corresponds to University of Toledo Health Sciences? probably not the dept that was in a police chase heard off of the OH MARCS site in franklin county.......

OK now I am just thinking aloud...
 

jackj

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From my limited reading and understanding of P25 systems, talk group IDs are only used in the radio's "home system". Interoperability occurs through all-call TG's unless the systems are patched together. Programing each and every radio for every P25 system in the state would be almost impossible for a number of reasons. I understand that Phase 1 P25 systems are limited to around 64,000 talk groups so reusing the same talk groups in different systems will become unavoidable with larger systems.

It's entirely possible that what I've said is bovine excrement. If so then please correct me so that all of us can learn something new.
 

wa8pyr

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From my limited reading and understanding of P25 systems, talk group IDs are only used in the radio's "home system". Interoperability occurs through all-call TG's unless the systems are patched together. Programing each and every radio for every P25 system in the state would be almost impossible for a number of reasons. I understand that Phase 1 P25 systems are limited to around 64,000 talk groups so reusing the same talk groups in different systems will become unavoidable with larger systems.

It's entirely possible that what I've said is bovine excrement. If so then please correct me so that all of us can learn something new.

Interoperability is often as simple as programming neighboring systems into a radio, for what's called "fingertip roaming," and in fact is the most common solution in many areas (for example, most radios here in the Columbus area have up to 7 area systems programmed). However, you are correct in that programming all systems across the state into a radio would be impractical; there is a limit based on the amount of memory a radio has. It would also be pretty pointless for a radio which may never move (or isn't intended to move) too far from it's home area.

P25 systems are specifically designed to be connected together to allow talkgroup roaming; as long as everything is set up correctly, a radio from one system can seamlessly and effortlessly roam onto another with only one system programmed and no intervention by the user; after the system controllers hem and haw with each other for a few milliseconds, the radio joins the new system. The allows cooperative expansion of coverage areas, and can be limited by talkgroup and/or radio. Talkgroup A might be permitted to roam, while Talkgroup B might not, and Radio C could roam while Radio D could not. And so on...

All-call talkgroups aren't specific to interoperability. They are used to broadcast a message across a pre-established (and programmed into the system and radios) group of talkgroups for things like making an evacuation announcement, etc etc.

However, systems wouldn't need to be connected together to avoid duplication of talkgroups. Assuming each county were allocated 500 talkgroups, and each metro city another 500, you're still only talking about 46,000 talkgroups used just for the counties and metro cities. That still leaves 18,000 talkgroups for other functions and users (state agencies and so forth). On top of that, some counties won't need even remotely close to 500 talkgroups, and their leftovers could be reallocated as needed to other locations.

So 64,000 talkgroups is more than enough for the entire state of Ohio and then some.
 

budevans

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I thought that the current limit on TGID's is 128,000. Wasn't 64,000 an early limit on Moto P25 systems?
 

wa8pyr

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I thought that the current limit on TGID's is 128,000. Wasn't 64,000 an early limit on Moto P25 systems?

You're thinking of 128,000 Radio IDs, which is the limit for the current Motorola P25 system version. That's a bit misleading, however, because what that number really means is 1280,000 radios; there are actually over 16 million ID numbers available, and each radio can use any one number as long as it's not already in use by another radio.

As of version 7.13 (I think), systems will be capable of over 16 million radios.

However, should an agency elect to purchase a separate system, they can reduce costs by purchasing only as many radio "licenses" (think of them like software seat licenses) as they need. To add more is simply a matter of buying more (If I recall correctly they're sold in blocks of 500).

Motorola Smartnet Type II systems are limited to right around 64,000 radio IDs and 4096 talkgroups.
 
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jackj

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Thanks for the info, Tom. That clears up some of my questions as well.
 
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