ARES on Statewide Trunk System

[polson]

I was just browsing the Milwaukee County Wisconsin system and noticed that ARES has three TGIDs on their county Motorola system. That got me wondering why ARES doesn't have TGIDs on the Oklahoma Statewide system. Have the reps of ARES ever tried to pursue getting TGIDs via TAEMA or the statewide emergency organization? Alternatively, have/can the ARES folks here find out from the Milwaukee people how they obtained them and how they use them? Maybe we don't need them as TAEMA is on the repeaters. Dunno.

 

[KD5WLX]

Isn't that a contradiction? ARES is "Amateur Radio Emergency Service". And amateur radio is restricted to "non-commercial" use - and that includes paid employees using an amateur radio in the course of their jobs (even if their "job" is managing an emergency for a public agency".

That's why the NWS uses volunteers to run Net Control during weather events. The meteorologists themselves can't pick up the mic, even if they're licensed.

ARES is a backup to the public safety comms systems in case theirs go down. It isn't supposed to overlap, because, if theirs goes down.... then OURS goes down.

 

[Thunderbolt]

There are other trunked radio systems around the country that allocate talkgroups for ARES and RACES, even SKYWARN events. I guess it all comes down to how each state or county feels about such things. Moreover, many states have or plan to implement talkgroups for each city/county EOC to talk directly to the NWS, so they can relay severe weather reports over large distances. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in the future.

73's

Ron

 

[OUAlumni]

Have the reps of ARES ever tried to pursue getting TGIDs via TAEMA or the statewide emergency organization? Alternatively, have/can the ARES folks here find out from the Milwaukee people how they obtained them and how they use them? Maybe we don't need them as TAEMA is on the repeaters. Dunno.

I can't really see a need to add ARES TGs to the state system because the usefulness of ARES lies in their ability to provide communications outside of the "normal" public safety systems. Plus the amateur radio repeater systems in Oklahoma probably provide better coverage! I know that walking around with an 800 MHz radio would be cool - but why would they need to use amateur radio operators if they don't need to use amateur radio systems?

 

[Grog]

It could be good for a local event (storm) and relaying info directly to someone at the EC in the capital. If a ham (working at a shelter) can relay that to a non-ham via a system, it could save some time. Now how that would work as far as $$$ spent is another matter. I know some hams who could see themselves spending a few hundred dollars for an older 800 HT, but with the newer systems going digital or P25, the chances of getting a "cheap" HT are not too good.

 

[KD5WLX]

Grog,

That can be done NOW with no additional hardware. ARES function of relaying from a shelter to an EOC (ie, Red Cross shelter to TAEMA) via amateur radio, because the trunked system (and phone system) are down or overloaded. TAEMA then relays via the statewide system to OKC and the state office. But if the trunked system is down, R/C can't contact TAEMA (hence ARES support) AND TAEMA can't contact the state, either.

At that point, who's in charge? ARES! We'll just set up an HF link to OKC, or use the TARC UHF link (likely to soon be expanded to reach at least that far - we get regular checkins from OKC metro area now via the Stillwater link, and we have plans for ones in Cushing and Bristow, as well as talk of one in Edmond and another at NSSC in Norman).

In other words, we (ARES) ARE the backup for the state system, not the other way around. If the state system is working, they don't call us.

 

[Trunkster2002]

jay, Calm down man. Did you ever think that there are situations where the main amateur radio operators only have the radios and they can talk directly to all agencies in there area. They can talk right with the EMA director or Mayor or Police chief on there talkgroups as well about certain situations. This is very common in my neck of the woods. You should stop and think outside the box. There is more than just having talkgroups. It is knowing you can talk directly to who you need to. And there ability to talk with you. You should live down south the past 3 years with all the hurricanes and you will see why amateurs are on trunked systems. Just ask FEMA! Just ask Anybody in Southern Mississippi!

 

[Grog]

Grog,
That can be done NOW with no additional hardware. .

Seeing as how I'm a ham that does both ARES & RACES, I know all about the system.

jay, Calm down man. Did you ever think that there are situations where the main amateur radio operators only have the radios and they can talk directly to all agencies in there area. They can talk right with the EMA director or Mayor or Police chief on there talkgroups as well about certain situations. This is very common in my neck of the woods. You should stop and think outside the box.

That is the situation I was refering to. What if something just happened, and there were no hams at the EOC?

 

[ab8sf]

Interoperability. Having ARES talkgroups enhances our ability to support other agencies' operations. It does not impair our ability to provide back-up communications, and it enhances our value to an integrated system. We still remain communications specialists. If we are trained in several areas we can provide support in many areas.

Jim AB8SF Allegan Co., MI EC/RO

 

[KK5FM]

That's why the NWS uses volunteers to run Net Control during weather events. The meteorologists themselves can't pick up the mic, even if they're licensed.

So, there's a volunteer guy who shows up at the Norman NWS office every day to read the hazardous weather outlook on (the OKC area) 145.210? I thought those were the staff meteorologists.

 

[K5MAR]

Tulsa has volunteers for net control. Norman has licensed hams on the staff who handle the ham radios. Riley/FCC has determined that the dissimination of weather information by non-profit organizations like the Weather Service is within the proper use of amateur radio. The staff at the NWS is not being paid to run the amateur radios, it's a non-commercial use. Likewise, paid emergency management employees can operate the amateur radios installed in their EOC or EM vehicles while performing their paid jobs (as long as they're licensed). This is part of the public service aspect of amateur radio. They are not receiving any "material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" for the operation of their ham stations.

Mark S.

 

[Grog]

Wow !!! Everyone from 5-land showed up in this thread

 

[OpSec]

I was just browsing the Milwaukee County Wisconsin system and noticed that ARES has three TGIDs on their county Motorola system. That got me wondering why ARES doesn't have TGIDs on the Oklahoma Statewide system. Have the reps of ARES ever tried to pursue getting TGIDs via TAEMA or the statewide emergency organization? Alternatively, have/can the ARES folks here find out from the Milwaukee people how they obtained them and how they use them? Maybe we don't need them as TAEMA is on the repeaters. Dunno.

I'm glad I clicked on this thread from the Forum Index.

I am the guy that got the seed planted for the ARES TG's on the MCTRS...no kidding. The TG's came about when the new county EM Director was wondering how he could get a hold of the ARES EC, AEC and/or a couple other key people in the case of an activation. He also wanted to know how EM and ARES could talk to each other for training, etc. We talked about it and thought cell phones were a good way to go, but when a couple of us ran into the Motorola Tech assigned to maintain the MCTRS, he suggested a couple TG's for us. This was feasible since a few of us were familiar with Motorola gear, so five of us purchased our own MTS2000 portables and had them programmed by the Motorola tech. It solved the problem of interoperability, since both ARES and EM can talk to each other. If the TRS goes down, we can use an 800 MHz conventional failsoft frequency (repeater or simplex) or have an ARES member shadow the EM director.

The ARES TG's are not meant to replace amateur radio communications, nor are they used in that capacity. They are there for command and control, training and admin useage. It's nice that we (ARES) have a working relationship with EM and the radio tech, but I imagine that any group could do the same as we did.

With the permission of the EM director and the Sheriff, the radios were programmed with various county agencies including the Sheriff's department, EM, Highways and various mutual aid patches from VHF.

 

[KD5WLX]

Mark has it right.

In an emergency (where the volunteers haven't arrived yet) there are a couple of meteorologists at NWS Tulsa that are also licensed who will act as NCOs until help arrives. Same thing with TAEMA.

They can "patch" our radios to theirs, or just use ours, since they're licensed.

I wouldn't mind having an 800 trunked HT and talk group, but I doubt it's usefulness. You should read the rest of the threads on this forum about the problems with the (not) statewide system, and the others on all the agencies that elected NOT to use it.

Add in that Tulsa's system reboots the controller a couple of times a day, and goes down for extended periods seemingly about every other time we have severe weather, and you'll see that around here the amateurs are more the "backbone" than the "backup" to the official comms system.

And don't EVEN ask me to talk to the mayor. If he shows up on an emergency scene I'd probably have him arrested. Then again, I might anyway?

And of COURSE there's a lot of 5-landers on this forum. It's the OK forum, and OK is in 5-land.

 

[Grog]

And of COURSE there's a lot of 5-landers on this forum. It's the OK forum, and OK is in 5-land.

I'm so used to listening to all sorts of calls in the Charlotte metro area, that I get used to hearing people with calls from the entire country.

 

[polson]

Thanks, stateboy, for giving us the inside scoop on how you folks worked it.

According to the ARRL EMERGENCY COMMUNICATION HANDBOOK (I haven't taken the CCE courses yet but plan to), we shouldn't just look to HAM-based solutions to emergency communications issues. That seems to be what is implied by some of the responses in this thread.

I worked Camp Gruber and the Red Cross office during the Katrina response. Yes, we did a good job and HAM radio fit the problem well. But I don't for a moment think that HAM radio was the only solution to the comm situation at the camp or between the camp and the ARC office.

If the HAM community here were truly the backbone of the official comms system, then wouldn't the city request HAM operators to locate at the fire stations for call dispatching rather than using the phone to call the stations and having PD go there for assignments when the TRS is down? While I'm sure the local public saftey officials respect and appreciate the HAM community, I doubt seriously that they look to us as being their first responders in a comm system failure.

It truly is a case of "When all else fails, HAM radio works." In the cases when all else hasn't failed I believe we should look beyond only HAM-based solutions. Having TGIDs on the TRS would be another communications path available, just as email, IM, telephones, fax machines or any other method would be. It could make it easier for the public service officials to communicate with HAM responders as it would be using the system they are already familiar with.

For example, having an ARES TGID would allow HAMS to monitor any emergency call-ups on our scanners watching the TRS rather than monitoring multiple HAM repeaters carrying non-emergency traffic. I suppose TAEMA could do a call-up that way using one of their TGIDs, but it would be nice to have an ARES-specific TGID for that. I keep my scanner on all night monitoring the emergency channels on the TRS. There's no way I'd monitor the HAM repeaters like that.

I'm glad to see that there are so many people wanting to discuss this.

 

[Grog]

For example, having an ARES TGID would allow HAMS to monitor any emergency call-ups on our scanners watching the TRS rather than monitoring multiple HAM repeaters carrying non-emergency traffic. I suppose TAEMA could do a call-up that way using one of their TGIDs, but it would be nice to have an ARES-specific TGID for that. I keep my scanner on all night monitoring the emergency channels on the TRS. There's no way I'd monitor the HAM repeaters like that.

That's a very good point. However, if the TRS was a digital one, the amount of hams who would own such equipment would not be as great as the scanner crowd. We all know how cheap some hams are (raising hand) :lol:

I'm glad to see that there are so many people wanting to discuss this.

Me too...........

 

[rdale]

"If the HAM community here were truly the backbone of the official comms system, then wouldn't the city request HAM operators to locate at the fire stations for call dispatching rather than using the phone to call the stations and having PD go there for assignments when the TRS is down?"

That is the case in several communities via ARES and I took part in one activation in Toledo OH. We did a great job getting the stations manned in a very short (surprisingly short) timespan.

 

[polson]

OK, Grog, you caught me. I do own a 396! Nothing says the TGID couldn't be analog though.

 

[K5MAR]

Given the impending upheavel in the 800 MHz band, I'm not sure if right now is the best time to start buying trunked radios. :wink: But I'm not in an area that currently has reasonable 800 MHz access, so I'm not in a position to say. It occurs to me that the TAEMA and SEMA TGs would be a logical, preexsisting place to put the authorized ARES people.

I also don't have any idea what the Tulsa ARES people currently use for callouts. Perhaps Jay or somebody would chime in with that info.

Mark S.