Arizona Federal Database - Needed Confirmations

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Paysonscanner

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I want to update the Arizona RR Database page. I have a lot of official agency frequency directory information that needs over the air confirmations. I expect this thread to be one of several given the time my Daddy and I have.

Please take a listen to the National Forests in Arizona to confirm the following. What needs to be confirmed is in bold text.

Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests (A-S)

This is one national forest under one forest supervisor in Springerville. The portion of the Apache National Forest in New Mexico is administered by the Gila NF our of Silver City, New Mexico. This administrative combination was completed in 1974, this is nothing new. Dispatch is provided by the Show Low Interagency Dispatch Center. This forest has one comm system, with one net for the west, used for the ranger districts on the old Sitgreaves National Forest and one net for the east, used for the Arizona ranger districts of the old Apache National Forest. I've submitted this info once before, but the admin insisted that these be shown as two different forests. This is inconsistent with the remainder of the database as there are many administratively combined national forests in other states listed as one entity. Examples, Mt Baker-Snoqualmie NF in Washington, Beaverhead-Deerlodge NF in Montana and the Arapahoe-Roosevelt NF in Colorado. Why the database admin wants to show the Apache and Sitgreaves NF's in Arizona as separate national forests is a mystery to me. Do other RR members thing it should be listed as one forest?

Anyway, what I want to confirm for this forest if dispatch still uses the call sign "KOC 283" as they did when dispatch was in Springerville or if they use "KOC 221" as dispatch is now in Show Low and the mountaintop link they use from there has that call sign.

The database shows the repeaters the official directory has, but that directory does not show tones transmitted on the repeater output. Are these tones transmitted and different for each repeater?

The new, as of today, listing for the "Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest" only lists the USFS Region 3 (AZ & NM) assigned tactical frequencies that are listed under "Common Use" on the same page, so this new listing is redundant and confusing. Should this new Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest 3 frequency listing be deleted?

My info does not show each repeater transmitting a PL tone on each repeater output, is a PL actually transmitted on these repeaters?


Coconino National Forest - Are they still using "KOC 437" for dispatch? It's been some years since I was in Flagstaff to listen to this forest. I also see some possible errors in the listing. The directs are shown wrong. They should not be a repeater pair as shown. It should show,

171.4250 North Direct
171.4250 164.0750 North Repeaters
172.3000 South Direct
172.3000 164.8750 South Repeaters

The inputs and outputs for each repeater are shown backwards in the database. Is the above listing correct?

In addition there are north repeaters located at O'Leary, East Pocket, Saddle, Hutch, Mt. Elden, Schnebly and Moqui. South has repeaters at Mingus, Squaw, East Pocket, Baker Butte, Hutch, Schnebly, Moqui and Ike's/Fossil. In Payson we can hear Baker Butte pretty well, but the rest are either full of noise or don't break squelch. I have not heard a tone transmitted on the output of each repeater, is this correct?

The air to ground frequency of 171.5750 is old and not used anymore. The correct frequencies are shown in the database under the Initial Attack Zone 1 -Flagstaff Dispatch Center. The 171.5750 is obsolete, is this correct?

Coronado National Forest - Is dispatch using "KOC 435" or "KOG 785" or some other call sign?

The RRDB shows 168.6000 as a "ops direct" frequency. This is actually NIFC Tac 3. My info shows 168.1500 being used for portable repeaters with a 172.2750 input. With the new NTIA assignments of the VHF High Band, it would seem that this should be reversed, however 168.1500 is a logical choice for a tac freq to be used on the forest. Has anyone heard 168.1500 being used as a tactical, or hear it used for a on scene tactical repeater?

Kaibab National Forest - Is dispatch using "KOC 421" or "KOC 422?" They used "422" for many years, but again, I haven't been there in awhile. The channel list should read,

170.5500 North Direct
170.5500 164.9375 North Repeaters
172.2500 South Direct
172.2500 164.1000 South Repeaters

Is this the correct frequency and channel use?

The database shows this with the inputs reversed as to which repeater net they are assigned to. There are repeaters on the north net at Jacob Lake, Dry Park, Big Springs, Big Ridge, South Canyon and Kanab Hill. The south net has repeaters at South Canyon, Red Hill, Bill Williams, Red Butte, and Grandview. My information shows that they don't transmit a PL tone on the repeater output. Is this still the case?

Prescott National Forest - Last time I heard they were using the call sign "KOC 423" at dispatch. Is this still the case?

The database shows 135.6750 for air to air, but the Initial Attack Zone 7 - Prescott Dispatch Center shows this as the third to be used in this zone. Should we delete it from the Prescott National Forest listing as it is misleading to show only one of the zone's air to air frequencies?

The database shows 135.975 for the Prescott Tanker base. Our info shows 123.975 being the air tanker base frequency for all of Arizona. Is 135.975 in use for the Prescott Tanker Base?

Tonto National Forest - I hear them using "KOC 286" Does anyone else hear them use a different call sign? We don't hear all the repeaters on the forest, the repeater at Humboldt is problematic with our current, repairs badly needed, antennas here. So we need a little help.

The RRDB listing shows 126.325 for air to air and just like the Prescott this is the third AA frequency to be used in Initial Attack Zone 6 - Phoenix Dispatch Center and is shown in those listings. Should this be deleted?

170.0000 is listed as an air to ground. The initial attack zone has the correct air to ground listings in the RRDB. This frequency has been reassigned as the output for the NIFC Command 4 repeater pair. Is it still in use on the Tonto as an air to ground? We haven't heard it here.


I've made a submission to delete 5 frequencies as listed in the RRDB AZ federal listing under "Common Use," based on other info I have. This includes all of those shown with "Large Fire Support" in the description. The commands are already in the NIFC system or are assigned nationally as air-air, air-ground or tactical frequencies as needed. The 2 air to grounds listed 166.0875 and 166.3375 are likely to have been assigned to a large incident on a one time assignment. They don't need to be listed under Common Use as they may not be used again or will show up on a fire in the future. We can't list all of these in the RRDB as they might get used again or might not. Members have posted hearing dozens of similar frequencies in use around the nation.

I have a lot of things that need confirmation. I've spent a great deal of time with this thread in an effort to make the DB as accurate as we can. The fire season has started here in Arizona, so as is often said please "observe and report!"

I have a lot of information for the BLM and the NPS that needs confirmation also. These will be the subject of some upcoming threads. Happy social distancing!
 

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There is a lot to cover in this post, and a lot of geographical area, so we really need listeners to chime in with what they have monitored. I can speak for the Tonto stuff as some of the repeaters, and certainly the air stuff are within my listening range.

126.325 was monitored in 2019 for air to air. If anyone as 2020 updated air to air freqs for any of the zones, please submit. I will remove this from the Tonto category as it is a duplicate of what is already in Initial Attack Zone 6.

170.000 I last monitored as Air to ground in 2011. This is likely no longer in use as the Three Zone 6 freqs were used last year for air to ground. I will mark deprecated and will delete in 30 days unless anyone can confirm recent use.
 

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Tonto National Forest - I hear them using "KOC 286" Does anyone else hear them use a different call sign? We don't hear all the repeaters on the forest, the repeater at Humboldt is problematic with our current, repairs badly needed, antennas here. So we need a little help.
The Dispatcher is "Phoenix Dispatch". I have never heard them voice a callsign. I have also not heard CW on the repeaters.
 

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The database shows 135.6750 for air to air, but the Initial Attack Zone 7 - Prescott Dispatch Center shows this as the third to be used in this zone. Should we delete it from the Prescott National Forest listing as it is misleading to show only one of the zone's air to air frequencies?
Yes, this is a duplicate.
 

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The directs are shown wrong. They should not be a repeater pair as shown. It should show,

171.4250 North Direct
171.4250 164.0750 North Repeaters
172.3000 South Direct
172.3000 164.8750 South Repeaters

The inputs and outputs for each repeater are shown backwards in the database. Is the above listing correct?
These are correct. Updated.
 

Paysonscanner

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The Dispatcher is "Phoenix Dispatch". I have never heard them voice a callsign. I have also not heard CW on the repeaters.
Phoenix Dispatch has used the call sign KOC 286 in the past as my daddy has remembered. We don't seem to hear it now. Standard USFS procedure around the country is for dispatch to end all contacts with the call sign, as assigned by the NTIA. We could hear several national forests from our foothill town in the Sierra Nevada and they followed this practice. Example " Sierra, Engine 11 in quarters Jerseydale" - "Engine 11, Sierra, in quarters Jerseydale at 1414, KME 26." I'm not hearing this here in Payson so far, but wondered if they are doing so on other repeaters.

When I lived in Arizona through college and when visiting the state when I moved to CA, I would hear the Coconino do the same with "KOC 437" and the Kaibab with "KOC 422" at the end of their contacts. Now I'm not getting out at all since moving back to Arizona in fall of 2018. Taking care of my parents keeps me in the house most of the time. Otherwise I would travel about and confirm this stuff myself, so that is why I'm asking for help.
 

Paysonscanner

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Let me know if u want something tested. I can hear from Coconino to Coronado.
Have at it, everything that needs confirmation is bolded above. I did forget to bold the question about the Tonto NF call sign though. When I lived in Arizona, moving away to take a job in CA in 1977, I don't think any of the dispatch centers were interagency and dispatch zones were not in existence at the time. So many changes have occurred since. Examples are the fire dispatching for the Navajo Reservation in the Flagstaff Interagency Dispatch Center and the fire function of Grand Canyon National Park being dispatched by the Williams Center. My Daddy says in those days they didn't have even the neighboring national forests frequencies in their radios.
 

Paysonscanner

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These are correct. Updated.
Have you decided yet on combining the Apache NF and Sitgreaves NF to follow the administrative organization of the USFS? For some reason I've met resistance for the database following the agencies actual organization, especially for the BLM in other states. I think the listing should be the same as any user would get when getting on the websites of the agencies. If you do a search for the Sitgreaves National Forest you will end up square on the Apache-Sitgreaves NF website. Another example, in the BLM listings in Arizona the listings are organized by the BLM district. In other states the admin refuses to acknowledge that districts exist. But they are listed correctly in AZ, but they could be clarified by showing that the different frequencies under district headings are assigned to the different field offices in each district. I've posted maps of the BLM's field organization on the federal forum and the RRDB should reflect what is shown there, as well as a similar map available for the USFS. When some national forests are combined they might end up using one frequency for all of the forests. These combinations have been done all over the country, with the A-S being the only one in AZ and R3 of the USFS. In this agency's R1, R2, R4, R8 and R9 there are tons of them and that is the way they are listed in state federal RRDB pages. Daddy thinks more will come as the budgetary issues for the agency are pretty extreme. Over in New Mexico he thinks the Carson and Santa Fe might be combined or the Santa Fe and the Cibola might be combined someday. That or the widely scattered pieces of the Cibola given to 2-3 other forests.
 

Paysonscanner

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P.S. cellphone, I want to thank you and other database administrators for you efforts. The RRDB is nearly the sole source of info for frequencies, with paper directories pretty much out of business, so maintaining it is important to a lot of people. My late Hubby said this and my Dad say the same, "Many Thanks!"
 

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The frequencies under National Interagency Fire Center -> Federal Wildland Fire - Air appear to be very dated. This section will likely be moved to the Wiki. Does anyone have a current list of Initial Attack Zone Air to Air frequencies? If so, please submit, or PM me. Thanks!
 

Paysonscanner

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Thanks John! Our very old NTIA federal government call sign book made KOC 421 look like the best choice. However, I believe in the early 2000's late Hubby and I heard KOC 422 when we were in Flagstaff, but my memory is fading on some things. We were climbing Mt. Humphrey's at the time. We wanted to see where the 37 feet at the top went after it was remapped from 12,670 to 12,633 ;)
 

Paysonscanner

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You can probably hear the Coconino from your location. They have a repeater on Mingus, but I would bet they don't use it often. It has been a very long time since I've been in Prescott, but I seem to remember hearing Mt. Elden from there. Anyhow, can you confirm they are still using KOC 437? I remember hearing that when we lived there for a few years when I was in elementary school. Dad had a VFO dial tune receiver at the time. He had thread thin engineering/drafting tape on the face, with green for the Coconino, orange for the Kaibab and red for the Prescott. They might have still been on lowband when I was in 2nd grade.
 

radioprescott

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Hi Paysonscanner!

'The Coke' uses both Mingus Mountain and Squaw Peak (near Camp Verde) quite regularly.

The east Prescott (Verde Ranger District) and the south Coconino (Red Rock Ranger District) are co-managed, at least as far as fire management/suppression is concerned. The units there check on and off on both the Coconino and Prescott freqs on Mingus. I've heard recreation staff use Squaw Peak to manage access to the Verde River.

Not sure of the call sign for the Coke.
 

Paysonscanner

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I worked as a fire lookout person on the Tonto and never used a call sign.
Lookouts identify by their location, example Promontory, Humboldt and Mt. Ord. That and Engine 12-48, Division 12-4 and Battalion 12-61 are identifiers, not call signs. Call signs are like FCC licenses, such as KOC 286 (Tonto), KOC 437 (Coconino) and KOC 423 (Prescott), but don't do a FCC license/call sign search for these. These are actually issued by the NTIA, the agency that regulates the federal government's use of the radio spectrum. When late Hubby and I lived in the Sierra foothills in CA the some national forests had a 3 letter, 2 number call sign and we never figured out why. So we heard KME 26 and KME 24 as well as the usual KSB 801 and KMB 740.

By the way, the national forests in Arizona put the number of the forest in the identifier first. So Tonto units will all have a 12 preceding the other numbers in the identifier, such as "Engine 12-26." This means 12 is the Tonto, 2 stands for the Globe Ranger District and 6 is the number of that engine on the district. Other nearby forests are 1 for the Apache Sitgreaves, 4 for the Coconino and 9 for the Prescott. These are assigned alphabetically in the Forest Service's, Southwest Region, R3. There are 11 of them in AZ and New Mexico. Number 11 was retired in 1974 when the Apache, forest #1 (AZ portion) was combined with the Sitgreaves, forest #11. Using the forest number as part of the identifier does not follow national policy, which was issued about 10 years ago. That policy states that, for example, an engine will be identified with the state, forest 3 letter identifier, the engine type, the district number and the engine number on the district. So, Engine 12-26 would be AZ TNF Engine 626 as it is a type 6 on the Globe district (#2) and they have given it a 6 for its individual engine number. On the Payson district there is a Type 3 engine that would be identified as "AZ TNF Engine 348" as the Payson district is #4. When engines ID on their home forest they would just say "Engine 348" pronounced "engine three forty eight." If they are on a nearby forest in Arizona they would say "Engine 348." If they are out of region they would say "Tonto Engine 348." This is so the command structure of any fire knows what type of engine they are working with even if they haven't seen it or have looked on the shift plan that lists resource types. The full "AZ TNF Engine 626" is placed on the side of each engine and front and rear in large letters (4-6" in height - Daddy doesn't remember) on each engine. The state is important as, for example, "ANF" is the identifier for the Angeles in CA, the Ashley in UT and the Allegheny in Pennsylvania. Other resources are "D" for division (Fire Management Officer - FMO), "CH" for Chief (Forest FMO), "WT" for water tender, "P" for patrol (has small pump unit), "PV" for prevention, "T" for Dozer Transport, "DT" for Dozer Tender, "C" for crew (hotshot crews verbalize with crew name "Mesa," "Globe" and "Payson"), SUPT for hotshot crew superintendent and finally "U" for Utility, a pickup assigned to a station for this and that. Agency owned water tenders will be showing up with a "2" as most agency water tenders are Type 2's. The Forest Service did renumber any equipment when the policy was issued, the next replacement will show the older system, whatever it might have been.

The BLM has a system with the engine type in it as well. It is a 4 digit number. The first number is the BLM district in a state, (in AZ, 1 for AZ Strip, 2 for Phoenix, 3 for Colorado River and 4 for Gila), followed by the resource type, followed by the resource number. So AZ E3420 would be Arizona, District 1 (Arizona Strip), Type 4 Engine and engine number. Some states use the 3rd digit for the field office number and some use it for individual station numbers.

This shows the big difference between a call sign and an identifier, sometimes known as a designator. Daddy's really into this stuff, he can see apparatus on the road and tell you where it is from.
 

ecps92

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Unless actually heard OTA, all are for reference only, not Gospel

AZ01 - 2020
A/G 57 - 168.7250 Primary
A/G 32 - 166.9625 Secondary
A/G 56 - 168.6625 Tertiary
A/A 01 - 135.6500
A/A 02 - 126.9000
The frequencies under National Interagency Fire Center -> Federal Wildland Fire - Air appear to be very dated. This section will likely be moved to the Wiki. Does anyone have a current list of Initial Attack Zone Air to Air frequencies? If so, please submit, or PM me. Thanks!
 

Paysonscanner

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Unless actually heard OTA, all are for reference only, not Gospel

AZ01 - 2020
A/G 57 - 168.7250 Primary
A/G 32 - 166.9625 Secondary
A/G 56 - 168.6625 Tertiary
A/A 01 - 135.6500
A/A 02 - 126.9000
I recently received a bunch of material third hand through a contact I made in California while working/living there fixing up my Uncle's vacation home for sale. I have a 2019 national list of air to ground assignments. I meticulously working through it to edit a spreadsheet type publication listing all the national air to ground freqs. It will show these by GACC zones and dispatch center. It is very slow work, but I will post as an attachment when it is completed. I wish I had the 2020 version so this will be Gospel as of 2019.
 
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