Asking for proprietary system information isn't cool..............

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KM4WLV

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I've debated for 4 days on whether or not to make this post, but I feel like I should for the good of not only the members of our NC forum, but RR as a whole.

Our site & entire forums are dedicated to the monitoring of anything that you can hear come across the air without having to break any types of encryption or other security protocols, and this brings around the point of this post...........

Many of us, especially in the NC forum, either work now or have previously worked in the installation, management, and maintenance of various radio systems across the state. Those of us that have, and those that still do, WILL NOT give out proprietary system information, fleetmaps, or any other system information entrusted to us. Everyone I know that works with public safety radio systems are usually bound by an NDA, non disclosure agreement, whether we still work in the field or not. People are still bound by those even after employment is over. If you break an NDA that's your a$$. Not only have I helped maintain these systems over the last 14 years but I also relied on them the 17 years I was a firefighter. I know firsthand the importance of system safety and security, as do those that still maintain these systems.

Again, I WILL NOT give out any information I have been entrusted with in the past, nor the information I'm entrusted with today. If I receive another phone call asking for trusted, secure information, I will not help and I'll be glad to give you the phone number of the system(s) manager and you can call them.

If this post is thought to be in poor taste then please let me know and accept my apologies. I just thought it needed to be said. I'll close by saying if you want to monitor public safety then buy a scanner. If you have to ask how to passively monitor a system with a radio then you have no business with a radio, or RSS/CPS in your hands. It will get someone hurt or killed.

On that note, have a great evening!!! :D
 

kc4wsd

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I have monitored radio systems as a hobbyist for twenty-five years. During that time I have also supported directly, and indirectly, law enforcement and emergency management agency communications.

For the record (and for what it's worth), I support your stance 100%.
 

reconrider8

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i agree 100% with you. no i havnt worked on the systems but i am a vff myself and i know the importance of the radio systems statewide. with that being said if we log unknown tgids it woyuld be nice for us all to get along with each other and help to id them. if you have a clue what it could be but arnt sure just pm the poster. but with that being said donmt take the fun from the hobby by just throwing the whole list in the db. but there will be people that abuse what little help people try and give them or will just be hard headedf and stick to what they thing they know :) rant over... ps i love all of yall
 

W8EMX

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Daniel -
I completely agree with your stance and thank you for putting down what a great many of us so adamantly believe (and I wish more would).
Preach on!
--DTS
 

KM4WLV

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And I'll add before it gets tossed out there..........

Yes, there are those of us in the NC forum that share information. That is because we are AUTHORIZED to do so, and these relationships have been built over time.
 

jhc1322

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Well, I agree with most of what you said, but I would point out that disclosing proprietary information is what is really not cool. It's harmless to ask for it, if you are properly turned away for security reasons.

My point is security is 100% the responsibility of the provider, and it's important to demand a secure system that doesn't rely on the good behavior of the masses. If a ebay radio could accidentally get someone hurt or killed, the system providers needs to address that. People should always feel free to live tweet anything they hear on a scanner because nothing sensitive should ever be transmitted on an unprotected channel. If the technology exists to routinely encrypt all P25 traffic, it should be used whenever it is needed. The fact that few people have digital trunking scanners should not be considered a layer of protection.

Again, I'm not saying a hobbyist should post something obviously sensitive, but that its much more the fault of the system for not securing that information.
 
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reconrider8

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Not sure the exact document but a buddy of mine actually found the statute saying that its illegal to bacisically tell anyone anything you hear over the airwaves
 

Drafin

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but with that being said donmt take the fun from the hobby by just throwing the whole list in the db.
First off, let me say that I agree 100% with the original poster. I understand the frustration of being asked repeatedly for the "secret frequencies" repeatedly from my decade in law enforcement. Most people don't realize that there are no such thing and if there were I'd not give them out. :) It must be 10 times worse when people actually want a radio to Tx and Rx on a proprietary system.

But I totally disagree with the above statement. I could not care any less about searching for talk groups, hoping to catch some identifiable traffic on them and cataloging them as I have had to do since the P25 switch of VIPER. I listen to the scanner to know what's going on around me and nothing more. To me, the searching and confirming is an exercise in frustration and in no way "fun". That being said I can understand that it could be fun for some people, I'm just not one of them. I prefer to have all the information in hand and be able to listen to what agencies I want too, as opposed to listening with wildcards open and having to hear everything in the hopes that I can figure out which agencies are on which TGIDs, so I can narrow down all the noise from everything else.

For me, I would never ask for a list from my previous agency. I wouldn't want to put them in a bad situation and asking just seems plain old rude. Thus, I rarely listen anymore unless the scanner is locked in on the local PD or SO. Until most of the system is entered into the database here at RR, I would rather not be frustrated, trying to figure it all out. I'll leave that to the people out there that enjoy that sort of thing. :)

Draf
 
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iMONITOR

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"Asking for proprietary system information isn't cool.............."

Shouldn't the title be: "Disclosing proprietary system information isn't cool.......?

There's no harm in asking. If everyone on RR ask for information that is illegal to disclose, no harm has been done. It's when people that have access to that information, disclose and disseminate it, that the harm is done.
 

WA4MJF

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Two things:

Secret police frequencies, the closet I remember to them were certain designated low power ( 5 watts, I think) frequencies in each band that a LE department that held a LE frequency license could use. There is/was a list in Part 90 and the department could choose one or more and use them without notifying the FCC and they were "secret". Of course, one could go the Part 90 and plug them all in a scanner and hear close in activity on them. We use to use them in our Federal low band portables, CH 1 was 39.10 that all NE NC used and the CH 2 was I don't remember, 39.04, maybe. No one was told what it was, looked at it on a freq counter one time

Proprietary Information (PI), AFAIK, belongs to the vendor and, of course, Motorola competitors don't like Big M's PI, because once they are entrenched in a system they kinda are excluded. Other companies, of course, have their own PI. My question is how much PI does the average radio mechanic have knowledge of? I'd guess it would be imbedded in a chip, that might be changed in a
repair, but the schematic would just list the chip number with no info about what is in it. Is that right? I've heard there is a chip in all cell phones from one company that controls the RF part of the phone and it is PI to that company and without it the phone won't work.
 
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Ensnared

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Fleet Maps Encouraged

I've debated for 4 days on whether or not to make this post, but I feel like I should for the good of not only the members of our NC forum, but RR as a whole.

Our site & entire forums are dedicated to the monitoring of anything that you can hear come across the air without having to break any types of encryption or other security protocols, and this brings around the point of this post...........

Many of us, especially in the NC forum, either work now or have previously worked in the installation, management, and maintenance of various radio systems across the state. Those of us that have, and those that still do, WILL NOT give out proprietary system information, fleetmaps, or any other system information entrusted to us. Everyone I know that works with public safety radio systems are usually bound by an NDA, non disclosure agreement, whether we still work in the field or not. People are still bound by those even after employment is over. If you break an NDA that's your a$$. Not only have I helped maintain these systems over the last 14 years but I also relied on them the 17 years I was a firefighter. I know firsthand the importance of system safety and security, as do those that still maintain these systems.

Again, I WILL NOT give out any information I have been entrusted with in the past, nor the information I'm entrusted with today. If I receive another phone call asking for trusted, secure information, I will not help and I'll be glad to give you the phone number of the system(s) manager and you can call them.

If this post is thought to be in poor taste then please let me know and accept my apologies. I just thought it needed to be said. I'll close by saying if you want to monitor public safety then buy a scanner. If you have to ask how to passively monitor a system with a radio then you have no business with a radio, or RSS/CPS in your hands. It will get someone hurt or killed.

On that note, have a great evening!!! :D
Interesting post. Well, I feel that I'm quite fortunate living in Waco, Texas where radio monitoring is encouraged by the Information officer associated with Waco PD. When I asked, he sent me the documentation for obtaining the radio system parameters/fleet maps through the Freedom of Information process. He then helped me write and submit it to his department. In Waco, the PD stated that they wanted to public to hear the funny, scary, exciting, & job-associated events. Of course, he stated, some of the channels will be encrypted such as Narcotics, USMS, SWAT.

So, I consider myself lucky living here. It is one of the few advatages of living in a cultural desert.
 

KM4WLV

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"Asking for proprietary system information isn't cool.............."

Shouldn't the title be: "Disclosing proprietary system information isn't cool.......?

There's no harm in asking. If everyone on RR ask for information that is illegal to disclose, no harm has been done. It's when people that have access to that information, disclose and disseminate it, that the harm is done.
I see your point but I in one way agree on how you think it should be listed, and another way I don't......... This thread was the result of someone asking me for information about a system, and other information that any person who is well versed in monitoring systems, or who know how trunked/P25 operate would know better than to ask for what they did. System keys, how to program a radio to passively monitor systems, etc. I simply told this person that I would not & could not supply the information requested. Nor would I tell this person how to program, nor would I program a trunked radio to passively monitor anything. It was made clear that this person knows nothing about how trunked/P25 systems operate and that was made clear in another thread here in the NC forum........... And I'm sure if you all want to know who I'm talking about can be revealed by doing some detective work. My opinion is this: If you have to ask how to program a trunking capable radio to "passively" monitor a system you have no business having a radio or RSS/CPS in your hands. It has a good potential to get a legitimate system user hurt or killed. If someone wants to monitor public safety then go buy a scanner. If you can, or do have a trunked radio programmed to monitor a trunked system then good luck to you and be careful.

Again, that last bit is my opinion. Some may agree, other I know won't. We all have opinions but I know we can all get along as well, supporting others in their opinions as long as they don't have the potential to get someone hurt or killed. I've said what I needed to say and I'm done with this thread. Thank you to those who supported what I said and understand, and thank you to those others who responded but have different opinions. Know that I may not agree with everything that was said I still respect and support your ideas and opinions & glad I have the blessing to be a member of one of the best subforums on RR !!!!
 

pinballwiz86

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My opinion is this: If you have to ask how to program a trunking capable radio to "passively" monitor a system you have no business having a radio or RSS/CPS in your hands. It has a good potential to get a legitimate system user hurt or killed. If someone wants to monitor public safety then go buy a scanner. If you can, or do have a trunked radio programmed to monitor a trunked system then good luck to you and be careful.
People are asking you for help to program their HT to listen to public safety but that could potentially transmit on public safety frequencies?

Uh..that's not cool at all! Buy a scanner guys..
 

Mtnrider

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A bunch of people have loaded the china town radios here in our town...it was nice of them to leave the off key "ding dong" to know there playing hopefully soon they will be caught
 

SCPD

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I prefer a scanner when it comes to trunking. Just to me more options with things and your not limited to a flashcode. With the age of technology changing constantly it don't seem logical for going buying a radio to only within 6 months have to figure out do I want to attempt a upgrade or new radio when the scanner will do same job and have upgrade capability at a free to very low cost with firmware. I use radios for my agency but your limited with things and I always see people trying to have ways to add something they can't. Yeah the audio may be louder but who is going to use a scanner for listening in a real situation or industrial loud environment? I see allot of those beofangs on people's hips not sure of its a cool thing but most law enforcement or fire usually off wear gear under the shirt and usually off or most don't even carry at all and the volunteers usually leave it on page only. Just don't see why you'd want to walk through a busy mall blasting a transceiver. It draws attention and annoyance from people. I don't think I'd want attention at me while with a family out in a event if someone bad in the crowd came along and noticed hey he has a radio he's a threat and noticed the family close by. But i prefer scanners with trunking. Some prefer 2 ways. Like said if you know how and without a doubt won't affiliate like said good luck. But I've seen too many accidently affiliate or not setup right and then when they get questioned they want pitty. Seen allot posts about inhibited radios. I don't feel sorry for those folks. But i know in right hands it's not a problem but you keep getting inhibited eventually it'll catch a admins attention and eventually he will track the person down if it keeps becoming a annoyance.
 

KM4WLV

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People are asking you for help to program their HT to listen to public safety but that could potentially transmit on public safety frequencies?

Uh..that's not cool at all! Buy a scanner guys..
That among other things...... I've been in the radio business for a long time and I'm not going to say whether or not I can or can't do that. Even if I could I wouldn't because though I'm still not employed by a radio shop (I'm on disability because of a back injury and numerous back surgeries) I'm still bound by the NDA's and non compete agreements I was under when I was employed.

I know people use commercial grade two way radios to monitor public safety all the time. There are those out there that have the ability to program those radios whether they downloaded illegitimate copies of RSS/CPS from the internet, or they actually bought it legally from Motorola. Most of the time those that know they shouldn't have, or don't really have a need to carry a radio won't purchase it legally. And now if you look on Fleabay, the site is inundated with radios capable of FPP (front panel programming), which could be trouble since it almost blows the need for CPS out of the water, unless you need it for button programming, etc.

Either way my opinion is if you want to listen to public safety then buy a scanner. If someone decides they are going to try it with a radio then use caution. If you get caught not only will your pretty Motorola, EFJ, Harris, or whatever will get turned into a paperweight by the system admin and you can count on them finding out who you are. And you will face a 99.999% chance of being charged with interfering with public safety communications, and you could also face charges for computer crimes since trunked systems are all ran by computers.

Stepping down off my soapbox :D
 

reconrider8

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I prefer a scanner when it comes to trunking. Just to me more options with things and your not limited to a flashcode. With the age of technology changing constantly it don't seem logical for going buying a radio to only within 6 months have to figure out do I want to attempt a upgrade or new radio when the scanner will do same job and have upgrade capability at a free to very low cost with firmware. I use radios for my agency but your limited with things and I always see people trying to have ways to add something they can't. Yeah the audio may be louder but who is going to use a scanner for listening in a real situation or industrial loud environment? I see allot of those beofangs on people's hips not sure of its a cool thing but most law enforcement or fire usually off wear gear under the shirt and usually off or most don't even carry at all and the volunteers usually leave it on page only. Just don't see why you'd want to walk through a busy mall blasting a transceiver. It draws attention and annoyance from people. I don't think I'd want attention at me while with a family out in a event if someone bad in the crowd came along and noticed hey he has a radio he's a threat and noticed the family close by. But i prefer scanners with trunking. Some prefer 2 ways. Like said if you know how and without a doubt won't affiliate like said good luck. But I've seen too many accidently affiliate or not setup right and then when they get questioned they want pitty. Seen allot posts about inhibited radios. I don't feel sorry for those folks. But i know in right hands it's not a problem but you keep getting inhibited eventually it'll catch a admins attention and eventually he will track the person down if it keeps becoming a annoyance.
I'll throw my opinion out to this point about 2 ways and yes I know that it was just his thought and blablabla... I volunteer myself and I do carry my 2 way on me as well as my pager on open because I like to listen to the fire calls around the county but if I'm out in public it goes way down just so maybe me and people right around me can hear. And like you said I do tend to keep mine down low under my shirt on my belt tho I don't do it like some and have it wide open walking around through a store. Just to add to this my 2 way is vhf not 800 trunking or any thing also
 
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