Assigning CDF Tac Channels

[ScanFanEd]

I have been listening to the “Horseshoe Fire” north of Hemet. Shortly after the fire began, the IC requested two additional tac channel assignments. Roughly a half hour later, Perris Dispatch advised that IC that they had been assigned Tac’s 26 and 27.

Would anyone know what the process is in assigning tax channels? I was surprised that it took about a half-hour to get the assignments. I am wondering if this means they go through the state level or other process to formally assign Tac channel assignments.

Anyone know what the process is?

Thanks!

 

[Station51]

not an answer to your post, but there is also some activity on 152.570 referencing "Romeo" and "inmate crews"
My guess would be US Forestry Service due to freq range, but haven't confirmed that.

 

[Station51]

Can't EDIT the above post for some reason but believe traffic is on 152.565

 

[norcalscan]

Each dispatch center has initial attack (IA) tactical channels available to hand out on their own. Usually 3-4 per Unit. However they will try to refrain from handing out more of those IA tacs when an incident requests more, because they want them available for other new starts in the Unit. The dispatch center will then go to their GACC (geographical area coordination center), in your case South Ops, and make the request. The GACC will have access to a freq coordinator that knows what extended calfire tacs (Tac 13-37) are usable in each Unit, as well as VFires and other assets, and of those, what's not already assigned to nearby incidents. It "should" be quicker than 30 minutes, especially on a quieter day.

When the GACC is overwhelmed or all out of assets, it will go to Boise NIFC for some legit "pulling numbers from a hat" magic. They'll find some available federal freq that isn't being used in the area and assign it temporarily to that fire on a one time basis (what we've seen in the past, and recorded here with NIFC extended Command channels, sometimes they'll reuse pairs in subsequent seasons...)

 

[Paysonscanner]

not an answer to your post, but there is also some activity on 152.570 referencing "Romeo" and "inmate crews"
My guess would be US Forestry Service due to freq range, but haven't confirmed that.

Not a U.S. Forest Service frequency at all. They are up in the federal VHF band that ranges from 162-174. All the fed stuff has been narrowband for years so even if you meant 162.570 it would not be a valid frequency.

 

[Paysonscanner]

Each dispatch center has initial attack (IA) tactical channels available to hand out on their own. Usually 3-4 per Unit. However they will try to refrain from handing out more of those IA tacs when an incident requests more, because they want them available for other new starts in the Unit. The dispatch center will then go to their GACC (geographical area coordination center), in your case South Ops, and make the request. The GACC will have access to a freq coordinator that knows what extended calfire tacs (Tac 13-37) are usable in each Unit, as well as VFires and other assets, and of those, what's not already assigned to nearby incidents. It "should" be quicker than 30 minutes, especially on a quieter day.

When the GACC is overwhelmed or all out of assets, it will go to Boise NIFC for some legit "pulling numbers from a hat" magic. They'll find some available federal freq that isn't being used in the area and assign it temporarily to that fire on a one time basis (what we've seen in the past, and recorded here with NIFC extended Command channels, sometimes they'll reuse pairs in subsequent seasons...)

I don't think NIFC would be in chain on a state licensed frequency. I've read up on what the NIFC radio folks do, I've even looked at a photo showing all the frequencies they authorize (to blurry to read) on the horizontal axis with columns for them to keep track of where they have authorized them. You are correct that South Ops would be involved. I haven't found anything in my late hubby's notes about how Cal Fire assigns tacs on large incidents. It might be in there, but I moved out of California last fall and don't have a big interest in looking through his 2 large Cal Fire notebooks. I'm no expert so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Duster]

Norcalscan is correct. That is the methodology to assigning CAL FIRE Tac nets on extended incidents, including the use of NIFC channels if needed.

 

[LBH]

152.57 is Los Angeles County Fire V-4. It is used for brush fires within the county on SRA (state resource area) and LRA (local resource area) land.

not an answer to your post, but there is also some activity on 152.570 referencing "Romeo" and "inmate crews"
My guess would be US Forestry Service due to freq range, but haven't confirmed that.

 

[Station51]

Thanks LBH. That would be why one of the transmissions was "Are you up on 4 ?"

 

[Kingscup]

on SRA (state resource area) and LRA (local resource area) land.

Federal/state/local responsibility area.

 

[LBH]

Federal/state/local responsibility area.

Thank you. I'm not sure where resource came from. It seems that was the best my brain could do that day.

 

[K6CDO]

I have been listening to the “Horseshoe Fire” north of Hemet. Shortly after the fire began, the IC requested two additional tac channel assignments. Roughly a half hour later, Perris Dispatch advised that IC that they had been assigned Tac’s 26 and 27.

Would anyone know what the process is in assigning tax channels? I was surprised that it took about a half-hour to get the assignments. I am wondering if this means they go through the state level or other process to formally assign Tac channel assignments.

Anyone know what the process is?

Thanks!

If the requirement exceeds the pool of available channels (bearing in mind other activity and the need for channels in case another incident breaks out), the ordering point goes to Sacramento for the assignment by the duty Communications Coordinator. So 30 minutes is typical for a weekend.

 

[Paysonscanner]

If the requirement exceeds the pool of available channels (bearing in mind other activity and the need for channels in case another incident breaks out), the ordering point goes to Sacramento for the assignment by the duty Communications Coordinator. So 30 minutes is typical for a weekend.

Going to Sacramento for CDF tac assignments is the process my late husband told me about. I didn't think that NIFC would be involved in state licensed frequencies. Sometimes CDF uses fed freqs. on incidents, especially for air-air, air-ground. Of course NIFC has the authority to do this. Someone commented that NIFC did assign CDF tacs on incidents and that member seems competent. I wonder if the Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management's state dispatch center has to ask permission from NIFC to use their 5 tactical freqs? Maybe most of CDF and ADFFM tacticals are pre-assigned, pre-approved and restricted to initial attack. Many states have state forestry agencies that have multiple tac freqs, do those states get NIFC approval as well? It is hard enough trying to figure CDF out, even without NIFC. I lived in "CDF country" for 40 years and between late hubby and I we thought we had it figured out. The nearest CDF fire station to us had people who were radio savvy and would spent time with us explaining it. We usually found someone that would let us copy their statewide freq guides and resource/facility list booklets. We never heard anything about NIFC and state frequency use, but then maybe those at this station didn't know the big picture. Does this mean that CDF engines, dozers and inmate crews moving between CDF's two regions have to have approval from NIFC? I thought the state, in Sacramento, had the ultimate authority over state resources.

Hubby was a volunteer firefighter with our local FPD. That is why he had access to many state documents. Our county contracted with CDF for dispatch and batt chief supervision, lots of rural counties in CA do.

 

[norcalscan]

I don't think NIFC would be in chain on a state licensed frequency.

I think my post was misunderstood. First paragraph explains how the request stays within the state, going to their respective GACC (north or south ops) for additional assets and/or the state CDO through Sac. That's where they get additional CalFire Tacs, VFires, VTacs, and other assets assigned. The second paragraph is where I state, when the GACC/state is all out of assets in the area of the incident, the request gets bumped up to NIFC to get a NTIA frequency temporarily assigned to the incident. No, NIFC is not managing CalFire tacs etc. There were a few times where the state even went to the FCC for a STA license. However if I recall, those STA's ended up being CalFire licensed tacticals the following year so it was sort of known those freqs were "available"

Not quite sure how the extended attack Air channels are assigned these last two years, whether that's CalFire going directly to NIFC for an NTIA freq, or Sac/GACC has a small pool first before NIFC is involved. There hasn't been enough repetitive extended incidents this season to see if reassignment of the same freq occurs in the area like we've seen in previous years of the extended NIFC command pairs, but I'm seeing same freqs being issued on state and fed incidents this year.

 

[djpaulino]

152.57 is Los Angeles County Fire V-4. It is used for brush fires within the county on SRA (state resource area) and LRA (local resource area) land.
[/QUOTE
SRA is State Responsibility Areas LRA (local government agency) is Local Responsibility Areas .

 

[Paysonscanner]

I think my post was misunderstood. First paragraph explains how the request stays within the state, going to their respective GACC (north or south ops) for additional assets and/or the state CDO through Sac. That's where they get additional CalFire Tacs, VFires, VTacs, and other assets assigned. The second paragraph is where I state, when the GACC/state is all out of assets in the area of the incident, the request gets bumped up to NIFC to get a NTIA frequency temporarily assigned to the incident. No, NIFC is not managing CalFire tacs etc. There were a few times where the state even went to the FCC for a STA license. However if I recall, those STA's ended up being CalFire licensed tacticals the following year so it was sort of known those freqs were "available"

Not quite sure how the extended attack Air channels are assigned these last two years, whether that's CalFire going directly to NIFC for an NTIA freq, or Sac/GACC has a small pool first before NIFC is involved. There hasn't been enough repetitive extended incidents this season to see if reassignment of the same freq occurs in the area like we've seen in previous years of the extended NIFC command pairs, but I'm seeing same freqs being issued on state and fed incidents this year.

I misunderstood you. We are on the same page now. Hubby and I observed quite a few fires having fed freqs assigned to a CDF fire that had no feds in the Unified Command. This mostly for AA and AG use. However I think I saw a CDF IAP with one NIFC command repeater in the mix. NIFC is there for the states too, it's not just for the feds.

You used "state CDO through Sac." I don't know what that is.

 

[ScanFanEd]

Each dispatch center has initial attack (IA) tactical channels available to hand out on their own. Usually 3-4 per Unit. However they will try to refrain from handing out more of those IA tacs when an incident requests more, because they want them available for other new starts in the Unit. The dispatch center will then go to their GACC (geographical area coordination center), in your case South Ops, and make the request. The GACC will have access to a freq coordinator that knows what extended calfire tacs (Tac 13-37) are usable in each Unit, as well as VFires and other assets, and of those, what's not already assigned to nearby incidents. It "should" be quicker than 30 minutes, especially on a quieter day.

When the GACC is overwhelmed or all out of assets, it will go to Boise NIFC for some legit "pulling numbers from a hat" magic. They'll find some available federal freq that isn't being used in the area and assign it temporarily to that fire on a one time basis (what we've seen in the past, and recorded here with NIFC extended Command channels, sometimes they'll reuse pairs in subsequent seasons...)

NorCalScan,

Thank you for the outstanding explanation and information! What you described makes perfect sense, as to the delay that I heard in assigning subsequent or additional tac channels!

PaysonScanner, thank you as well. I saw your comment about your late husband being a firefighter. Very sorry for your loss. Thank you for your great insight as well!

 

[norcalscan]

You used "state CDO through Sac." I don't know what that is.

CDO would be Communications Duty Officer, unless you ask Don. Usually Duty Officers will be "on duty" (or in the civilian sense, "on call") for a pre-defined period (typically a week) at a time, rotating between a pool of people in that department. They have their cellphone and pager on them 24/7 for that week and their laptop or other intel nearby to provide the service. So lets say the CalFire Telecommunications Dept has 6 employees. Maybe 4 of those have Duty Officer tasks, so once a month each of them will "have the duty" for the week. I believe the CalFire Telecom Dept does the service of being the state frequency coordinator, or at least the "Comm Duty Officer" and "State Frequency Coordinator" are synonymous in this regard. But now we're really getting in the weeds, but with your contributions on these forums, it sounds like your hubby's notes go past the weeds and into the soil, so I don't think you mind.

 

[Paysonscanner]

CDO would be Communications Duty Officer, unless you ask Don. Usually Duty Officers will be "on duty" (or in the civilian sense, "on call") for a pre-defined period (typically a week) at a time, rotating between a pool of people in that department. They have their cellphone and pager on them 24/7 for that week and their laptop or other intel nearby to provide the service. So lets say the CalFire Telecommunications Dept has 6 employees. Maybe 4 of those have Duty Officer tasks, so once a month each of them will "have the duty" for the week. I believe the CalFire Telecom Dept does the service of being the state frequency coordinator, or at least the "Comm Duty Officer" and "State Frequency Coordinator" are synonymous in this regard. But now we're really getting in the weeds, but with your contributions on these forums, it sounds like your hubby's notes go past the weeds and into the soil, so I don't think you mind.

My dear late husband was a civil engineer so getting into the soil was required! We couldn't have kids so he seemed to have time to keep really good notes. While he was doing searches and wanted to be right next to the radios he took notes and caught up on things he had been told recently. He would come back from a fire he had notes on slips of paper that needed to be rewritten and organized. He was really organized, that man. We were [are] both that way, being an R.N. requires a lot of organization as little details have large consequences.

His notetaking made the difference twice when the county he worked for was sued. He had notes about why this design feature and others were needed. If an architect or engineer from a private company submitted plans he was asked to proof/validate them. Errors seemed to jump up and punch him in the nose.

 

[Paysonscanner]

NorCalScan,

Thank you for the outstanding explanation and information! What you described makes perfect sense, as to the delay that I heard in assigning subsequent or additional tac channels!

PaysonScanner, thank you as well. I saw your comment about your late husband being a firefighter. Very sorry for your loss. Thank you for your great insight as well!

He was a civil engineer, loved the community we lived in and eventually became a volunteer firefighter. He had an intense curiosity about EVERYTHING! When something could not longer be fixed, like a toaster or other appliance he would take it apart well enough that he could have put it back together again. Then he would separate the parts for recycling, circuit boards in this bin, metal in this bin and any recyclable plastic in another bin. He would be in his workshop and I wanted to call him a gnome, but at 6'6" he didn't fit the part. Thank you for your kind words. I think I'm having more trouble than average with the loss. Somehow working with his books and notes is helping. He left outstanding tracks of sources for info like deeply buried crevasses of the internet. After 1 1/2 years I finally got up the courage to look through his notebooks and bookmarks. This summer I spent a couple of months out of town fixing up a late uncle's house for sale and for the 1st time in life was alone, the notebooks helped and I really needed to get away for awhile.

Sorry to get off the topic. Thanks for the indulgence.