ATCS coverage map

[Tim-B]

Does anyone have a link to where I can find an online map of where Advanced Train Control System is deployed in the U.S.? I am trying to find out if it is being used in my area before I buy the RTL-SDR. I have searched and scanned the 800 MHz and 900 MHz frequencies used by ATCS as well as the VHF-hi AAR frequencies and I have not found any transmissions other than plain ol' analog voice on the AAR channels and nothing at all on the 800 and 900 frequencies. I even drove down a road that runs along the local yard and got nothing on the ATCS frequencies. The only digital transmissions I hear are FRED and Mary in the 450s.
So, with all that said, is there a map anyone can point me to so that I can find out if it is even being used in my area
or
Are there other frequencies I should be checking.

I did listen to some sound clips of what ATCS data bursts sound like in analog mode so I can recognize them if I hear them while searching or scanning.

 

[alabamarailfan]

Hello Tim,
I am not aware of a map that shows where ATCS is utilized. If you are already a member of the ATCS Monitor group (required to download the software), I would post my location and ask about your area. Very rare to be used anywhere other than one of the Class 1 railroads. If you are looking at a shortline or regional carrier, the chances are very small they would be using ATCS. Also, if the line in question is not CTC, you can guarantee they won't be utilizing radio code line (ATCS)

Hope that helps!

 

[Tim-B]

It is BNSF in south central Louisiana. They use track warrant control and send warrants electronically to the PTC in the locomotive and verify everything by reading back the warrant check boxes and mileposts or switches by voice over the AAR channels. Would that give any clue as to whether or not they use ATCS? I am just trying to gain a little more advanced notice of trains passing by. By the time you hear them OK a warrant on the subdivision dispatch frequency the train will be gone by the time I get to one of the spots where I park to watch. But I still do catch a lot of them in time.

 

[alabamarailfan]

If they are using track warrants, they are not using CTC so that would just about guarantee that they are not using any type of ATCS. You can have CTC without ATCS, but you can't have ATCS without CTC (dispatcher controlled switches, signals, etc.). Unless there is an outage some sort, you wouldn't hear track warrants in CTC territory.

You could still ask in the ATCS group but I would bet there is not going to any in use on the line you are looking at sorry to say.

 

[Tim-B]

I figured they weren't using because of the silent frequencies. I know the yard switches here are still manual. They have to send a man to move the switches every time a train comes into the yard so I figured there was no computer control over them. Thanks for the info. Well, if they ever install automated switches I guess I will start checking those frequencies again.

 

[burner50]

If they are using track warrants, they are not using CTC so that would just about guarantee that they are not using any type of ATCS.

That's not universally true... Granted, there may not be *much* ATCS traffic, but when I worked for UP, they were installing some of what was referred to as "poor man's CTC". Dark territory (track warrant without block signaling system), but they were installing dispatcher controlled switches in the sidings and the dispatcher could determine if a siding was occupied as well. Each end of the siding was listed in the timetable as a manual interlocking. Lola on the Duncan subdivision in Texas is one perfect example.

 

[AK9R]

This is a copy and paste of a post made by Mike Sullivan in the ATCS Railroad Monitoring Facebook group. I have underlined some pertinent points.

I’m sure everyone is paying attention to the **** storm of topics in the main group, so let’s clarify things here, where moderation is actually done.

The FCC is reallocating 900MHz spectrum (896-901MHz and 935-940MHz) for broadband deployment. 3MHz of spectrum is to be used for wideband broadband. Unfortunately, the current ATCS channels live in this part of the spectrum.

As part of the reband, the FCC is alloting two 125kHz portions (896.000-896.125 and 935.000-935.125) to the AAR for future use, provided they transition & remove the current ATCS channels 1-6 by September of 2025. The AAR holds the nationwide radio license for railroad use. Those frequencies have been added to the ribbon license already, equaling 10 channels each.

So what does this mean? Existing ATCS users have two options: Start moving to the new radio channels, or look at alternative methods. Railroads like BNSF and UP appear to be converting their networks (which both are a mix of technologies: ATCS, ARES, Genisys, etc) and converting to ITCM, a method that uses new and existing PTC infrastructure for CTC control, unifying their systems.

CSX already is on a similar system, which transmits via IP (basically the same as you connecting to your work network from home) as opposed to radio. It is yet to be seen what NS, CN, and CP plan to do. Mentions of NS switching to ITCM have been brought up but nothing has been done yet.

So what does this mean? The current ATCS channels will cease to be used eventually, we will lose some sort of coverage, or possibly all radio codeline if the railroads transition to ITCM. We may luck out and simply see channels changed to the new frequency sets. The possibility of PTC decoding is there if someone decides to, but from what I understand turn-key encryption is part of the PTC system. So, word gets out, they flip the switch.. and boom.

Keep in mind, this is also a crushing blow to territory custodians who have spent thousands of dollars and hours installing servers for your convenience. 98% of these sites will be rendered useless.

So, enjoy it while you can. Nothing you can do will change what the railroads decide to do, only make it worse. Just as CSX transitioned from wireline to ATCS, then to fiber/cell, and now satellite, you’ll have to go back to the old ways: Sit trackside and wait. If you don’t “have the patience” then find a new hobby.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

Based on this, I would be very reluctant to invest a lot of time and money into an ATCS monitoring solution.

 

[Tim-B]

Is that maybe why I see the VHF AAR channels displayed on the monitor of some videos where people are demonstrating how they use ATCS monitor? Maybe those railroads put the ATCS on the AAR channels?

 

[AK9R]

No. ATCS is data. It's not likely that you will find it on the AAR voice channels (160-161 MHz).

As stated in Mike Sullivan's post, ATCS is moving to new 800-900 MHz frequencies. It's also possible that the CTC functions that were monitorable over ATCS are moving onto the PTC network which is not monitorable at this time. Or, the CTC functions have already moved to the company's IP network (satellite, fiber optic, etc.).

All indications are that ATCS is going to become a dead-end.

 

[Tim-B]

In the post you copied above what are territory custodians that installed servers?

 

[AK9R]

The volunteers who put up ATSC servers at strategic locations along an ATCS-enabled line. Strategic in that they have good reception of the current 900 MHz ATCS frequencies.

 

[chrismol1]

In the post you copied above what are territory custodians that installed servers?

Probably the people who not only put money but time into computers, monitors, servers, antennas & cableling, purchase space and internet at remote sites or wherever in order to provide the monitors and/or data feed that ultimately provides the ATCS screen for train movement viewing

Hopefully NS will change channels. They installed ATCS maybe 8 years ago in my area, at least theres defect detectors on either end and with the valleys you can hear them coming a few miles away. Theres always FRED, the head end and rear end UHF transmissions give you notice. If you have the EOT software you can tell if a train is moving or not. Helps I live a 1000 feet of the tracks I can pickem up on ATCS with an SDR and whatever antenna and at least 3 crossing a few miles away horn blasts. I still have an old Maxtrac modified for 900 ATCS I purchased on the groups years back before SDRs came out, with the ATCS sticker on the head

The volunteers who put up ATSC servers at strategic locations along an ATCS-enabled line. Strategic in that they have good reception of the current 900 MHz ATCS frequencies.

Edit: beat me to it haha 1 minute

 

[Tim-B]

Well, after reading all of the above I can only hope that BNSF remains on track warrant control in my area for a long time to come.

 

[burner50]

Well, after reading all of the above I can only hope that BNSF remains on track warrant control in my area for a long time to come.

FRA wants dark territory gone yesterday due to safety concerns. Dark territory incidents can result in massive loss of life because the crew and dispatchers have no way to tell if there is something wrong out there. Just look at Graniteville.

Railroads want it gone because dark territory is slow and causes numerous extra delays. In addition, it's more labor intensive for the dispatchers which means they're busier and can't cover as much territory... Even Track Warrant Control with Automatic Block Signalling is a pain for dispatchers.

 

[Tim-B]

Dude, you aint kidding about the delays. When I first started to listen to their frequencies for trains coming into and leaving the yard I decided to make an excel spreadsheet of all the times on what days of the week and what direction and whether they were coming in or departing. Since I am working at home doing online legal research for a living it was easy to do this all day. My intention was to learn the schedule so I would not have to sit and wait for hours but just go to an observation point at the proper time. After doing that for a few months I learned this about the schedule: There isn't one. Talk about sporadic. I have seen them hold a ready to depart train in the yard for up to two hours to wait until Amtrak passes so they can let the slower freight out behind Amtrak. While listening to mileposts and warrants being granted or cleared they appear to try to keep at least a 50 mile or so gap between trains going in the same direction unless it is a slower freight going out behind Amtrak. Even in that instance they let Amtrak get about 20 miles or so out before they release the freight behind him. But at least with track warrant control I can hear more of what is coming in and out because of the voice commands. I have heard freights sit on a siding for up to a few hours when there is a train coming from the opposite direction on the main.

 

[INDY72]

And sadly, ATCS is now starting to be unmonitorable as more and more of the Class I's are going to Fiber, or SatNet systems, and radio is going away. There is a lot of this being talked about on the ATCS Mon forums.

 

[INDY72]

Dude, you aint kidding about the delays. When I first started to listen to their frequencies for trains coming into and leaving the yard I decided to make an excel spreadsheet of all the times on what days of the week and what direction and whether they were coming in or departing. Since I am working at home doing online legal research for a living it was easy to do this all day. My intention was to learn the schedule so I would not have to sit and wait for hours but just go to an observation point at the proper time. After doing that for a few months I learned this about the schedule: There isn't one. Talk about sporadic. I have seen them hold a ready to depart train in the yard for up to two hours to wait until Amtrak passes so they can let the slower freight out behind Amtrak. While listening to mileposts and warrants being granted or cleared they appear to try to keep at least a 50 mile or so gap between trains going in the same direction unless it is a slower freight going out behind Amtrak. Even in that instance they let Amtrak get about 20 miles or so out before they release the freight behind him. But at least with track warrant control I can hear more of what is coming in and out because of the voice commands. I have heard freights sit on a siding for up to a few hours when there is a train coming from the opposite direction on the main.

LOL... CSX stacks them on top of each other and causes backlogs on backlogs. Especially in the GA area. It can get interesting her in the Indy area, but not like the self made troubles they do daily down south. Just watch a few of the MBARS Youtube vids and you pretty soon wonder how CSX even manages to function down there.

 

[InspireWaukesha87]

BNSF is in the process of switching there ATCS network to a protocol that can’t be monitored utiilizing there PTC network look at this website for more info

Your Solution to migrating your Centralized Traffic Control off 900 MHz | Meteorcomm

Meteorcomm can help you manage changes needed as a result of 900 MHz changes by the Federal Communications Commission.

meteorcomm.com

 

[INDY72]

BNSF is in the process of switching there ATCS network to a protocol that can’t be monitored utiilizing there PTC network look at this website for more info

Your Solution to migrating your Centralized Traffic Control off 900 MHz | Meteorcomm

Meteorcomm can help you manage changes needed as a result of 900 MHz changes by the Federal Communications Commission.

meteorcomm.com

This is due to a new FCC mandate/ruling that railroad must leave certain spectrum asap. BNSF is the first to jump, with others to follow soon. That in addition to the switching to Fiber and Satellite systems.

 

[iceman977th]

Hey, that's me.

In a nutshell.. eastern railroads: CSX is 98% entirely on satellite/cellular which can not be monitored under any circumstances (unless you would like to catch a nice federal charge) Norfolk Southern uses ATCS on most of their ex-N&W and ex-SOU territories, with only bits and pieces on their ex-CR currently on ATCS. Western railroads are using a mix of technologies: ATCS & Genisys which both uses 900MHz, and ARES which uses VHF frequencies. However, as others have stated, the western railroads are very quickly migrating off of the current technologies to ITCM (CTC over PTC) but there hasn't been any official word of if NS will do the same or not. There have been rumors of migrating to ITCM, but no concrete evidence yet.

And as quoted from my FB post, the rebanding of 900MHz for broadband deployment is requiring the railroads to migrate off the current ATCS channels 1-6 to make way for the reband. As part of the deal, AAR gets 250kHz of spectrum (split between 896.000-896.125 and 935.000-935.125) to use. Split into 12.5khz channels, that makes for 10 channels each. They have to be moved off the current channels no later than September of 2025. For the western railroads that use a mix of technologies, unification makes sense. For NS, especially deep into their current PSR plan, I do not see them doing it, unless the cost of transition ability to ITCM (which may have been included in new signal installations) is less than sending C&S techs to re-tune transmitters for the new channels. Not to mention branch lines that use CTC and are not PTC active would either need to transition to the new frequencies anyways or have to have PTC infrastructure installed.

Mike