Attention: Volunteer fire fighters/reserve police officers/security guards, etc.

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KK4JUG

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My god if my house is on fire and my family is in danger. Pleas show up with a non certified Baofeng, a shovel a sprinkling can or whatever might help. I will forgive you if you mess up NCR and a prairie home companion long enough to help. We should be very grateful for all the volunteers who show up and not belittle them for not carrying a $3000 hand held.
I have donated Baofeng radio to volunteer firemen. It is not like we are giving them to 10 year olds to play with.
It does set funny in my craw that some of the amateurs would complain that a volunteer civilian might endanger his life to save others while the arm chair quarterbacks wine about spectral purity and certification of equipment with extremely limited range.
Good God get a life and while you are at it thank a volunteer emergency person. You might even consider buying the local volunteers a Baofeng and diner for his family. IF your conscience bothers you that much. Buy him a multi thousand dollar radio and tell him he can buy his own diner. If it bothers you that much please don’t bother yourself with the complicated questions like. Do I really want that guy helping if he is going to use a non certified radio.
I do know one thing that is certifiable and that is the idgit that worries non paid professional who are willing to risk life and health for others are better off with no equipment than non certified equipment.
My god what have we become?
Joe KA9UCN
In a real life situation, it would be hard to argue against that.
 

krokus

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My god if my house is on fire and my family is in danger. Pleas show up with a non certified Baofeng, a shovel a sprinkling can or whatever might help. I will forgive you if you mess up NCR and a prairie home companion long enough to help. We should be very grateful for all the volunteers who show up and not belittle them for not carrying a $3000 hand held.
I have donated Baofeng radio to volunteer firemen. It is not like we are giving them to 10 year olds to play with.
It does set funny in my craw that some of the amateurs would complain that a volunteer civilian might endanger his life to save others while the arm chair quarterbacks wine about spectral purity and certification of equipment with extremely limited range.
Good God get a life and while you are at it thank a volunteer emergency person. You might even consider buying the local volunteers a Baofeng and diner for his family. IF your conscience bothers you that much. Buy him a multi thousand dollar radio and tell him he can buy his own diner. If it bothers you that much please don’t bother yourself with the complicated questions like. Do I really want that guy helping if he is going to use a non certified radio.
I do know one thing that is certifiable and that is the idgit that worries non paid professional who are willing to risk life and health for others are better off with no equipment than non certified equipment.
My god what have we become?
Joe KA9UCN
You are missing the point. The CCR is not reliable, and not made to handle the conditions inside a structure fire. It will likely fail, leaving the FF with no communications, when they think they have a link to the outside. The failure could be bad enough, that the case melts, and destroys the FF's turnout gear, possibly hurting the FF in the process.

Taking that radio into an explosive atmosphere is another concern, with predictable results.

There are lesser expensive options, which still offer the safeguards.

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krokus

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I am hardly in way-shape-or -form, a radio lawyer... so whether a 're-purposed' transmitter, operating compliant would ever raise so much as an eyebrow ??
If done properly, I doubt anyone would ever notice. There is the difference between what can be done, and gotten away with, versus what is legal. (Much like using some ham rigs outside of the ham bands.)

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kayn1n32008

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Actually Joe, volunteers don't need a multi-thousand dollar radio, a $120 HT750 will work just fine. To even contemplate sending a fireman into an IDLH environment, that is hot enough to melt metals with a Baofeng radios is absurd at best, and criminal at worst. I would NEVER accept multi thousands of dollars worth of bunker gear, and associated PPE, hundreds of thousands of dollars on apparatus and allow my department to give me a $30 Baofeng.


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SCPD

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Joe, you ask, "what have we become?"
.
I started to write what I thought has happened to American culture, especially as it concerns this radio'ish topic- and backed off,* Fast!.... Where, oh where do you start?

.
"Remember that movie you saw as a girl?" -- this goes back a few years to a conversation with my father, the retired Air Force colonel and combat veteran. We have these talks frequently, often centre'ing about the changing culture of the country... you can imagine his take on it.
.
"Which movie was that"
.
......... I often feel like the 'straight' in a vaudeville act, leaning into the principle's leading question... but it a sure fire start to a conversation.
.
"The Time Machine..... remember the Eloi?"
.
"Who could forget them," I said.. " a society of devolved childlike adults (completely dependent on the Morlocks, their keepers of technology- who raised and ate the Eloi !)"
.
"Your point is?"- I play along with this act's interlocutor :)
.
"That's where we are as a country... a bunch of Eloi run by %$$# Morlocks"
.
This is where I usually remind him of his two sons, veterans of the Gulf Wars and other adventures in lands whose names no one can pronounce or keep track of.... and perhaps, maybe, an overlook'd daughter,? one who hasn't strayed too far afield... :)
.
"Maybe not every one" is the response, with a smile.
_____________________________________________
.
Joe, every time I let the neigh sayers get to me, I can think of those people I know that demonstrate the American Spirit every day-- like in the rural townes I wrote about.
.
"Too much media, too many bean counters..." I'd tell my father....
.
"Come take a walk with me in my mountains, - let's go shoot something (refering, to targets!)"....".You'll feel a lot better"
.
.
.........................CF
.
________________________________________
.
* you should have seen the beginning of the opus I deleted... :)
.
**H.G. Well's Victorian era tale of time travel (1895)... as a lover of Steam Punk, this is a classic for us
 
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Interesting story before this gets to become too much of a pissing match. Anyone remember the structure fire in Houston that made news in the radio world a few years ago? Firefighters died…family's sued Motorola, one of the failures was found in 3rd party RSMs which physically failed in the environment. It's not just it shouldn't be done, it's a matter of huge liabilities are introduced when you even mix thing such as non-recommended accessories.


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KK4JUG

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You are missing the point. The CCR is not reliable, and not made to handle the conditions inside a structure fire. It will likely fail, leaving the FF with no communications, when they think they have a link to the outside. The failure could be bad enough, that the case melts, and destroys the FF's turnout gear, possibly hurting the FF in the process.

Taking that radio into an explosive atmosphere is another concern, with predictable results.

There are lesser expensive options, which still offer the safeguards.

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I think YOU are missing the point. If one can get the good stuff, fine. If, for whatever reason, he/she can't get the communications equipment that's covered in certification labels, do the best you can with what you DO have.

Perhaps they should detail one volunteer to check the radios as each firefighter arrives at the scene. If the radio is not suitable, the firefighter is turned away. That might eliminate the problem of having uncertified equipment at a working fire.
 

KK4JUG

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Interesting story before this gets to become too much of a pissing match. Anyone remember the structure fire in Houston that made news in the radio world a few years ago? Firefighters died…family's sued Motorola, one of the failures was found in 3rd party RSMs which physically failed in the environment. It's not just it shouldn't be done, it's a matter of huge liabilities are introduced when you even mix thing such as non-recommended accessories.


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So, who won? Filing a suit means nothing.

It's not whether you win or lose that counts. It's how you play the game. Oh, wait!! In court, it does matter whether you win or lose.
 

buddrousa

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It is better to not have at all than to risk with CCR. OSHA, NFPA, and the others will have less of a problem with only having one radio designed to be used in the fire service and approved to be used in the fire service than having or letting unapproved radios be used on the scene. In case my point was missed before IF YOU USE A UNAPPROVED RADIO YOU HAVE NO INSURANCE NO WORKMANS COMP NO NOTHING. Is this what you want to risk for your family.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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25 year old Astro 25 tech checking in…I refuse to be a part of the millennial BS though. I know of one other Astro 25 tech my age…we both share the same view on all of that though we both live in two different states.

On my last trip to Schaumburg, I did notice some of the newer generation. Mostly handling networking and software development.

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Good on your aspirations. I think it is rare. Seriously, I have 30 ish family member who have no interest in how things work, not at all. Just a bored look when I explain tech. Or show what is going on under the hood of the car. Then back to staring at the smart-*** phone. I can fly as a passenger on the newest jet aircraft and I have a working knowledge of what all the systems do. Not saying I would fly one, but if a part flew out of the engine cowling, I could impress my fellow passengers with an explanation of what just happened while they scream. I really don't see that interest today even with all the focus on STEM.

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RFI-EMI-GUY

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A couple years back, the NFPA, following the direction of their foreign counterparts sought to make the intrinsically safe certification for portable radios even more restrictive. It would have meant lowering power levels from 5 watts, to a fraction of a watt and even changing the plastic mixtures in the housings. It was insane. Motorola and Harris convinced the NFPA to push back.

So on one hand a certifying body wants the power levels of the radio slashed, and on the other, the users wanting more performance. You really can't win. Companies like Motorola have to deal with threat of lawsuit everyday. I was Motorola's proxy (defendent I guess) when a radio fell on a bus driver. The bus company installed the radio and was responsible to lock it into place. The driver lost by the way. It didn't help his defense that his neck worked well enough to swivel his head and talk to his wife throughout the trial.

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So, who won? Filing a suit means nothing.

It's not whether you win or lose that counts. It's how you play the game. Oh, wait!! In court, it does matter whether you win or lose.
I haven't checked in on it for a year (the suit named one a company I worked for at the time directly, the MSS that sold the XTS portables) but last I heard it was determined that Motorola and the MSS were free from liability in terms of the equipment sold and system coverage (the RSMs were not sold by the MSS). The primary issue was of course the 3rd party RSM not meeting spec and failing and secondarily the building was exempt from NFPA communications requirements and not all firefighters made the transition to the direct fireground channel.
Good on your aspirations. I think it is rare. Seriously, I have 30 ish family member who have no interest in how things work, not at all. Just a bored look when I explain tech. Or show what is going on under the hood of the car. Then back to staring at the smart-*** phone. I can fly as a passenger on the newest jet aircraft and I have a working knowledge of what all the systems do. Not saying I would fly one, but if a part flew out of the engine cowling, I could impress my fellow passengers with an explanation of what just happened while they scream. I really don't see that interest today even with all the focus on STEM.

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Ironically, I have an engineering degree. I saw the need for technicians/engineers who understand two-way. I went from microwave based engineering to 9600 bps...and still get to play with microwave occasionally.

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krokus

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I think YOU are missing the point.
You can think that all you want, it is still a free country.

If one can get the good stuff, fine. If, for whatever reason, he/she can't get the communications equipment that's covered in certification labels, do the best you can with what you DO have.
Not every person going into a structure needs a radio. One per crew is adequate, and more than that tends to cause more problems than it solves. In this case, the CCR is likely to cause more problems, when it is critical.

Perhaps they should detail one volunteer to check the radios as each firefighter arrives at the scene. If the radio is not suitable, the firefighter is turned away. That might eliminate the problem of having uncertified equipment at a working fire.
That person is the chief, who prohibited using the CCR.


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KE0GXN

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From what I gather, I think I will heed the commentary from the folks you actually volunteer or are paid firemen on here......

But then again, what do they know.....? They are just the guys that actually fight fires.

I am sure us hams/radio enthusiasts are better qualified to speak on the use/non-use of CCRs in a fire fighting environment...? :roll:
 

buddrousa

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Wrong I read every LODD listed I know what will DQ a claim and as a supervisor I will not let my FF's put themselves or their family at risk over non approved PPE.
 

krokus

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From what I gather, I think I will heed the commentary from the folks you actually volunteer or are paid firemen on here......

But then again, what do they know.....? They are just the guys that actually fight fires.

I am sure us hams/radio enthusiasts are better qualified to speak on the use/non-use of CCRs in a fire fighting environment...? :roll:
There are a few of us on here that are both. We have a vested interest.

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KK4JUG

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There are a few of us on here that are both. We have a vested interest.

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And I'm almost both. Technically, I am not a firefighter. I am a retired LEO. I am, however, a certified arson investigator and a certified fire instructor (and a certified law enforcement instructor). On the fire side, I taught fire science and arson investigations. On the police side, I taught Constitutional law, search warrants Georgia law and basic arson investigations. My fire instructor certification is national. The law enforcement certification is Georgia.
 

crazyboy

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Not every person going into a structure needs a radio. One per crew is adequate, and more than that tends to cause more problems than it solves. In this case, the CCR is likely to cause more problems, when it is critical.

Yes, yes they should. Everyone should have a radio, not everyone needs to talk on the radio 24/7. Training and policy should spell out that under regular conditions the crew leader is to perform communications duties. The other members portables should be on, with volume at a low level to reduce feedback, and available in the event if an emergency. What good is one radio if it just fell down two floors with your partner, who is now unconscious, in a collapse that has you trapped in debris.
 

burner50

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From what I gather, I think I will heed the commentary from the folks you actually volunteer or are paid firemen on here......

But then again, what do they know.....? They are just the guys that actually fight fires.

I am sure us hams/radio enthusiasts are better qualified to speak on the use/non-use of CCRs in a fire fighting environment...? :roll:

Volunteer fire, paid EMS here.
 

N4DES

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This rule is even more important than those in Part 90 and is a blanket rule that covers all of the sections:

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...c35fd1946&mc=true&node=se47.1.1_1903&rgn=div8

§1.903 Authorization required.

(a) General rule. Stations in the Wireless Radio Services must be used and operated only in accordance with the rules applicable to their particular service as set forth in this title and with a valid authorization granted by the Commission under the provisions of this part, except as specified in paragraph (b) of this section.

(b) Restrictions. The holding of an authorization does not create any rights beyond the terms, conditions and period specified in the authorization. Authorizations may be granted upon proper application, provided that the Commission finds that the applicant is qualified in regard to citizenship, character, financial, technical and other criteria, and that the public interest, convenience and necessity will be served. See §§301, 308, and 309, 310 of this chapter.
 
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