attn: hams - Petition: New Antenna bill hr4969 - extend prb1 to ccr's

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kayn1n32008

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Wish I could sign it. I hope that this does happen though... Give some ammo to the folks that live in HOA or CC&R areas to tell the respective boards to go pound sand.


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Sccafire

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I would be more worried about HOA's. At least with me I do not have a HOA but I do have cc&r's. My cc&r's allow me to have an antenna.
 

zz0468

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...Give some ammo to the folks that live in HOA or CC&R areas to tell the respective boards to go pound sand
The best way to tell HOA's to pound sand is to refuse to live in those areas. Same with CC&R's.

As much as I dislike these sorts of restrictions, I will be quite surprised if anything occurs to preempt them. It smacks of the sort of government meddling into private affairs that we spend so much time bashing on these forums. So the meddling is ok if they mess with something we don't personally care for?
 

AK9R

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It smacks of the sort of government meddling into private affairs that we spend so much time bashing on these forums. So the meddling is ok if they mess with something we don't personally care for?
You have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

If I signed a contract to buy a piece of property that included CC&Rs, then I should be bound by them. I have no reasonable expectation that the Federal government will come along after the fact and say that some provisions of that contract are nullified.

On the other hand, the FCC's OTARD rules for satellite dishes and TV antennas did exactly that. In reality, most HOAs and residential property developers have re-written their CC&Rs to make them conform to OTARD. But, if the OTARD rules can override CC&Rs, then why can't PRB-1 override them, too? The FCC has routinely said that OTARD is a different matter when petitioned to give PRB-1 the same teeth.

While this House bill is a nice gesture, I don't think it will make it out of committee. Money talks and the real estate lobby has more money than the amateur radio lobby.
 

jackj

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I fail to understand how CC&R's or PRB's benefit the real estate business. I understand that some folks like the idea that they can tell others what they can and can't do with their property. However it seems to me that anytime you place restrictions on how a customer can use his purchase you run the risk of driving a few people away from your product. While most zoning laws are a benefit to the majority of people, deed restrictions and to a great extent HOA are just people bullying others. I believe that all deed covenants should be outlawed, if you don't want the new owner to do certain things then don't sell the property. HOA's should be limited in what they can do and their legal powers greatly restricted. The idea that your neighbors can tell you what style replacement windows you can install or what color you can paint your home's exterior is ludicrous.

That said, if you sign a contract then you should be bound by it's provisions. Don't expect the government to save you from your foolishness.
 

W9NES

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I am in FAVOR of the bill HR 4969. We provide emergency service when other communications go down.I will be contacting my Indiana member of Congress to for his support if the bill. I would ask other Hams to get on the train and support the bill at a local, state, and federal level. I am a property owner and I do not need others telling me what to do with my property.
 
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DaveNF2G

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H.R.4629 is a stopgap for one particular interest group, just like OTARD was.

If you really want control over your own property, then you should be working on getting CC&Rs and HOA restrictions banned.
 

WB4CS

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HOA's are the most un-American thing a person can willfully buy into. Sure, they usually create nice communities that look nice, and if that's important to you then by all means live in one. I for one, will never buy property that a board can tell me what color my house will be, how tall my grass must be, how many vehicles I can have in my driveway, where to put my satellite dish, and that I cannot put up antennas if I choose to do so. It's my property that I've paid for, and if I want to paint my house pink with yellow stripes, let my grass grow to 8 inches, have an old pickup truck in the driveway that doesn't run, and a few HF antennas up in the air, it's my property and I'm going to do it.

I've been a ham for just about 20 years. I've lived in rental homes and apartments for most of my radio "career." I was certainly restricted on what I could do when it came to antennas and I lived with those restrictions. When I decided that I was ready to put up another HF antenna farm I moved. That right, I moved. I bought a home that's not in an HOA. I passed up dozens of homes that I really liked because they had restrictions. I ended up with a nice home in the country with plenty of room for antennas and not one person can tell me that I can't put up antennas.

Sure, moving to another home to satisfy a hobby is a little extreme and I'm sure not everyone can do it. It's also not fair to newcomers to the hobby that already live in restricted properties. But going back to what I first said, many people chose to live in those communities. People who live in restricted communities that are not hams probably don't want to see a 100 foot tower in their neighbor's backyard, and they shouldn't have to see it. They paid a premium to live in neighborhoods that the homes are a copy/paste of each other and they shouldn't have to look at your triband beam.

There's also a difference between OTA antennas and satellite dishes versus your amateur radio antenna. TV provides local public service information that all people need access to. Talking on the repeater or 80 meters is not a necessity. And don't try to bring up "public service" and "ham radio saves lives!" crap. If you're really that into EmComm you shouldn't need a tower and beams at your home location, instead you should have portable antennas that can be easily deployed in an emergency. Talking on 80 meters about your colon issues, chasing DX on 20 meters, and chatting with Bob on the local 2 meter repeater is NOT "public service" or "emergency services."

Long story short, you choose to live in a restricted neighborhood. You can also choose to move.
 

kayn1n32008

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HOA's are the most un-American thing a person can willfully buy into. Sure, they usually create nice communities that look nice, and if that's important to you then by all means live in one. I for one, will never buy property that a board can tell me what color my house will be, how tall my grass must be, how many vehicles I can have in my driveway, where to put my satellite dish, and that I cannot put up antennas if I choose to do so. It's my property that I've paid for, and if I want to paint my house pink with yellow stripes, let my grass grow to 8 inches, have an old pickup truck in the driveway that doesn't run, and a few HF antennas up in the air, it's my property and I'm going to do it.



I've been a ham for just about 20 years. I've lived in rental homes and apartments for most of my radio "career." I was certainly restricted on what I could do when it came to antennas and I lived with those restrictions. When I decided that I was ready to put up another HF antenna farm I moved. That right, I moved. I bought a home that's not in an HOA. I passed up dozens of homes that I really liked because they had restrictions. I ended up with a nice home in the country with plenty of room for antennas and not one person can tell me that I can't put up antennas.
Agreed. If you want an antenna farm, buy somewhere with out CC&R or HOA.

A friend of mine got a visit from by-law telling him that his company truck(company name on it)was not allowed in his neighbourhood, his response was 'no problem, I will be gone in 90 days', and he was. No point in putting up with that BS.

Sure, moving to another home to satisfy a hobby is a little extreme and I'm sure not everyone can do it. It's also not fair to newcomers to the hobby that already live in restricted properties. But going back to what I first said, many people chose to live in those communities. People who live in restricted communities that are not hams probably don't want to see a 100 foot tower in their neighbor's backyard, and they shouldn't have to see it. They paid a premium to live in neighborhoods that the homes are a copy/paste of each other and they shouldn't have to look at your triband beam.
Regardless, I find the idea of some power tripping, nosey losers living beside me having the power to tell me what I can and can not do on property I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for revolting. I will NEVER live in a HOA or CC&R area.

There's also a difference between OTA antennas and satellite dishes versus your amateur radio antenna. TV provides local public service information that all people need access to. Talking on the repeater or 80 meters is not a necessity. And don't try to bring up "public service" and "ham radio saves lives!" crap. If you're really that into EmComm you shouldn't need a tower and beams at your home location, instead you should have portable antennas that can be easily deployed in an emergency. Talking on 80 meters about your colon issues, chasing DX on 20 meters, and chatting with Bob on the local 2 meter repeater is NOT "public service" or "emergency services."



Long story short, you choose to live in a restricted neighborhood. You can also choose to move.

100% agree


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WB4CS

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I fail to understand how CC&R's or PRB's benefit the real estate business. I understand that some folks like the idea that they can tell others what they can and can't do with their property. However it seems to me that anytime you place restrictions on how a customer can use his purchase you run the risk of driving a few people away from your product.
You'd be surprised. For some people it's a sign of status. HOA neighborhoods are (for the most part) nicer communities with nice homes that all look pretty. They're all the same colors, the grass is well maintained, and there's not any rusty old cars in the driveway on cinder blocks. There's plenty of people with the money and ego that want to live in such a place.

I work with a fellow that would never live outside of an HOA neighborhood. He enjoys paying an HOA fee so that the groundskeepers can tend to his lawn, and he has access to a community center with gym and pool. And that's okay, it works for him.

For other people it's about convenience. In the area that I live in, most of the HOA neighborhoods are either in the city limits or just outside the city. These are the most coveted areas of town because they are convenient to work, school, and shopping. The non-HOA community that I live in is about 15 minutes away from the city limits. I have to drive further for work, food, groceries, and such, but I have the freedom of not having to deal with an HOA.

I'm 100% against the idea of HOA neighborhoods, but I understand why some people like them and choose to live there.
 

jackj

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Brandon, you imply that non-HOA neighborhoods are trashed by the people who live there. I know that isn't what you meant but that is how your post reads. I live in a small town of about 3500 in a house built around 1920. There are no deed covenants, HOA's or other restrictions on what I can do. I do have to live within the local zoning laws but that's not a problem. I live in an older neighborhood with older houses that are, for the most part, well maintained. I have a 50 ft tower bracketed to the side of my house. It used to have a Cushcraft Tribander on it but now supports a TV antenna and a side-mounted discone for my scanner. I didn't have to ask anyone except my wife for permission to put any of this up.

I don't understand why anyone would willingly give up their ability to determine how to use their property.
 

AK9R

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One must be careful painting Home Owners' Associations (HOAs) and Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) with a broad brush. They are not all the same.

Six years ago, I started looking at buying a house. I was also a licensed amateur radio operator at the time. After spending some time looking at existing houses in my price range, I came to the conclusion that any existing house I bought would come with structural or mechanical issues that I would not want to deal with. So, I decided to build a new house. But, I could not afford to build a house on a lot out in the country without CC&Rs and get the kind of house I wanted, so I ended up in a residential development that was still in the building phase.

When I signed the contract to build my house, I knew that there would be CC&Rs attached and that an HOA would eventually be formed after the developer turned the community over to the owners. I was presented with a copy of the CC&Rs and I believe I signed a document indicating that I had received a copy and would abide by them. I did so willingly.

I won't go into great detail about what my CC&Rs cover, but suffice it to say that they include things like parking of recreational or commercial vehicles in the driveway, roof material, fences, the visibility of garbage cans, auxiliary structures such as mini-barns, animals other than household pets, exterior lighting, bug zappers, mailboxes, awnings, solar panels, and...antennas.

Here's what my CC&Rs say about antennas:

No antenna, satellite dish, or other device for the transmission or reception of radio, television, or satellite signals or any other form of electromagnetic radiation shall be erected, used or maintained outdoors and above ground, whether attached to a building or otherwise, on any part of the Property, including Lots, with the written approval of the Architectural Review Committee, which approval shall not be unreasonably withheld;...
OK, so they've prohibited any antenna unless you get approval from the ARC. Now, it gets interesting:

...provided, however, that any such device may be installed and maintained on any Lot without necessity of such written approval if:
  1. it is not visible from the neighboring Lots, streets or Common Area;
  2. or the Owner, prior to installation, has received the written concent of the Owners of all Lots who would have views of the device from their Lots;
  3. or the device is virtually indistinguishable from structures, devices, or improvements...which are not prohibited by these covenants or Bylaws;
  4. or it is a satellite dish 1 meter or less in diameter and not affixed to the roof of a residence;
  5. or if prohibition of the installation, use, and maintenance of such device is specifically preempted and superseded by applicable governmental authority.
Given that Part 97 already incorporates a preemption of zoning laws with regard to amateur radio antenna structures, I think I can make a reasonable argument that an "applicable governmental authority" has preempted the antenna prohibitions contained in my CC&Rs.

Also, I have attended every general HOA meeting since I moved into the neighborhood. I have learned from attending these meetings that HOAs are only as powerful as they choose to be. In many cases, their only legal recourse against a property owner who violates the CC&Rs is to file suit in an applicable court of law. Attorneys and law suits cost money and I think any HOA board would be very cautious about what violations they choose to pursue.
 

AK9R

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I don't understand why anyone would willingly give up their ability to determine how to use their property.
You act like you haven't done that...but you have.

You are subject to zoning ordinances that are passed by people you elect. You are required to pay taxes on your property that are levied by people you elect.

To an extent, an HOA is just a more localized version of your zoning board and your town council. In my case, the HOA Board is elected by the property owners.

I'm not jumping up and down in favor of HOAs, but I would only live in a community where the HOA is democratically controlled by the property owners.
 

W9NES

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In my area we have other hams who live in the area. One has a beam 2 meter beam antenna up on a tower and they have never said anything to him.He and others have been here over 10 years.
 

jackj

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HOA's are NOT government agencies, they are private councils originally formed to maintain property values. They have power over the residents only because the HOA was given that power by the residents. I'm not saying that they should be outlawed, just restrained a bit. In some areas HOA's have the power to assess fees and have those fees added to your property taxes, at least that is what I have read. I read every day about some HOA or other kicking a man out of his home because he flies a U.S. flag. Some assess fines that are collected by the local sheriff's department if you don't pay up. They have morphed into quasi-governmental agencies and should be scaled back a bit.

But as I have said, if you sign a contract then you need to live up to that contract. You signed it going in, knowing full well what you were getting into. It's nobody's fault but yours if you are now unhappy with the restrictions. You can work within the HOA to make changes to their rules or even to abolish it but don't go crying to the local, state or federal government to get you out of your bargain.
 

AK9R

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You can work within the HOA to make changes to their rules or even to abolish it but don't go crying to the local, state or federal government to get you out of your bargain.
I'm not. I'm also not signing this petition.

Like I said, painting all HOAs with a broad brush is risky business. In my case, the HOA Board is elected by the property owners...just like your town council. It's democracy in action.
 

videobruce

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There isn't enough money on this planet that would ever get me to get taken into one of these Gestapo camps. Period! :twisted:

BTW, I signed it.

.
 
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KF0X

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You try finding a decent neighborhood in which to live in Arizona that is not in an HOA!!! It is easy for some to tell you to not buy in an HOA. Unless you have unlimited financial resources and can buy an acreage, you are hosed so far as avoiding an HOA go. If you need to live in a city like Tucson or Phoenix (I do); you either have big bucks or live in the hood to avoid an HOA.

Neither option is a good one. Any decent place to live in the cities will have an HOA, PERIOD!

This bill would be a welcome relief for me.
 
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