I have heard from a couple of state troopers i work scenes with that in the not too far future that shp will be going to an untrackable microwave accountability comms system. in the long run for them it means less tower throughout the state and total untrackability which i guess can be a bounus to them if you are puttering along listening to your scanner to find the smokeies on the highways
Bad news for NCSHP listeners
- Thread starter drew6553
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untrackable ... ooooooooo .... sounds like BS to me.drew6553 said:
Less towers?? :roll: Yeah right. Anybody who knows anything about RF would know that microwave's need line-of-sight.
I would disregard.
Take it from me, that info is pure unadulterated BS. The statewide analog microwave system has been online for over 30 years and, in fact, is being rapidly replaced by the digital microwave system, and the 800 mHz mobile data system in the cars has been online for at least 4 years statewide. Now then, most of the troopers out there aren't even aware that the ancient mobile charger/vehicular crossband repeater system in their cars is also connected to an ancient statewide high band repeater system, so when the 800 mHz system comes online with its complexity and flexibility through that already existing microwave system, I can't wait to hear the resulting nonsense that'll produce. There will be ~217 sites statewide, BTW. That's a long way from "fewer."
"Once again we see that misinformation runs rampant, and rumors and outright lies seem to hold more value among the members of society than does reality." -Jack Nicholson
"Once again we see that misinformation runs rampant, and rumors and outright lies seem to hold more value among the members of society than does reality." -Jack Nicholson
PJH
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- 3,621
And to take it a step further, the VIPER project as its being rolled out will be a statewide, MIXED mode SmartZone system. Analog and Digital. MW system (which your not monitoring anyways) will actually be expanded and upgraded to handle the extra traffic.
As far as being unmonitrable, that statement would have been true a couple of years ago.
As far as being unmonitrable, that statement would have been true a couple of years ago.
drew6553 said:
Maybe they're talking about equipment in the new 4.9GHz band allocation that Public Safety just received, but I doubt it'll be used as a primary voice communication medium.
If 1 out of 100 troopers even know where 4.9ghz is, I'd be surprised.
The average public safety person can use the radio. They have no idea how it work, or why it does what it does. I remember showing a officer how I was finally able to follow the 800mhz TGs when the Pro-90 came out. He just dropped his jaw and said something about how he was told no one could hear him.
I then preceeded to tell him something he had told another officer the night before on a PL (I-call) that I monitored with a convenyional scanner. I also said that if I heard what he said about his G/F, maybe someone also heard it and he should use caution so his wife didn't find out :lol:
True Story :mrgreen:
The average public safety person can use the radio. They have no idea how it work, or why it does what it does. I remember showing a officer how I was finally able to follow the 800mhz TGs when the Pro-90 came out. He just dropped his jaw and said something about how he was told no one could hear him.
I then preceeded to tell him something he had told another officer the night before on a PL (I-call) that I monitored with a convenyional scanner. I also said that if I heard what he said about his G/F, maybe someone also heard it and he should use caution so his wife didn't find out :lol:
True Story :mrgreen:
4.9 gigs? We haven't completed the 800 mHz analog section yet, much less the migration to 700 mHz digital which will follow. The microwave point-to-point system is 6 gigs and suffers from time to time during heavy rain and snow/sleet, and a statewide base/mobile/portable 4.9 gig system in the terrain of NC is another pure unadulterated pile of brown stinky with current technology, even without the weather factor involved. Those guys were talking through the back side of their britches, that's what they were talking. 
LOL.... 4.9 Gig will be firstly- A LONG time away before implementation, and secondly- Digital DATA.... Its going to be hard eneough to get the VIPER fully running and the bugs out of it in the WNC area... They will have fun after say a series of big TS's and a Blizzard or two till its all ironed out. But once its fully rolling... VIPER should be a very nice system! Will be nice to have say an 2096, or 296D, or even BCD396T, and be able to set up a series of files and just ride through the Carolina's and hear everything. Now if TN will get the funding to build out there proposed TRS, GA thiers,... and we put the pedal to the medal here in MS.... You will all have fun scanning from TX to FL....
AR's ASTRO-25, the LATIE ASTRO-25, TN's proposed ASTRO, GA's ASTRO, the VIPER, and Palmetto 800.....And eventually MS's (most likely) ASTRO
AR's ASTRO-25, the LATIE ASTRO-25, TN's proposed ASTRO, GA's ASTRO, the VIPER, and Palmetto 800.....And eventually MS's (most likely) ASTRO
Blazer7112
Member
From A Tower Hand
Im a tower hand working all over the east coast as far in as alabama. Florida has the system your talking about (microwave) already in place. it takes up MORE tower space then coventinal 800 Mhz systems. this is why. the microwave dishes comunicate frome tower to tower only but the whole states radio trafic can be transmitted this way. but they still revert to a 800-900 mhz trunked, digital or analog frequency to talk from car to car and car to base. so you usually have a 4 omni directinal antenna setup on the tower along withthe dish. now another problem with towers in this area are most are monopoles and self support towers. in this region they arnt built for high winds and ice loads like in fla or in lets say chicago. the self suport and monopoles sway in the wind. dont belive me climb one! thats why on most dish sites its a guy wire tower. simply the tower infrastructure in this region is not up to date enough to go for the microwave thats why the viper system is being emplemented. hope this helps
jason
brandnew member
Im a tower hand working all over the east coast as far in as alabama. Florida has the system your talking about (microwave) already in place. it takes up MORE tower space then coventinal 800 Mhz systems. this is why. the microwave dishes comunicate frome tower to tower only but the whole states radio trafic can be transmitted this way. but they still revert to a 800-900 mhz trunked, digital or analog frequency to talk from car to car and car to base. so you usually have a 4 omni directinal antenna setup on the tower along withthe dish. now another problem with towers in this area are most are monopoles and self support towers. in this region they arnt built for high winds and ice loads like in fla or in lets say chicago. the self suport and monopoles sway in the wind. dont belive me climb one! thats why on most dish sites its a guy wire tower. simply the tower infrastructure in this region is not up to date enough to go for the microwave thats why the viper system is being emplemented. hope this helps
jason
brandnew member
Blazer7112
Member
YES
Yes a few. i work on anything that has to be put on a tower including stacking, aligning dishes. putting new sites on towers. (co locate) work for anybody thru moterola nextel verizon all of them. The NC viper system i belive is nothing more then a state linked mot type II system. ecept youll be bable to communicate from the mountains to the beach. But where it willl prove most usefull is the Police PC's the data capabilities are getting enormus. APB and amber alert ect will be able to be posted state/us wide in seconds to every car. something happens in mecklemberg county all surrounding counties and states could be on the look out. the last viper site i belive i was on was a 800 MHz 5 omni antenna 20 foot omnies at a rad center of 255 feet 4 antennas for recive and one for transmit. thats rural installations. in a metro instal typically you see the flat panel directinal antenna system which is usually a 3 sector site with 2-3 antennas per sector. to tell you the truth. the nextel backbone isnt verymuch different. i have installed the exact same antennas for a nextel site as i have a Viper install.
so back to what i was saying in my last post i dont belive we will have encrypted microwave signals we cant listen too. be cause in FLA they do and its transfered to a analog signal to communicate with the radios. Not to mention Fla is kicking their own butts right now cause everytinme a hurricane comes thru Im in Fla. for about 2 months usually in the everglades and the keys re alighning dishes so people can talk. The Vipe system is well thought out and i belive much more reliable because its not depending on line of sight to work.
I could go on and on but if you have any more questions let me know i plan on sticking around this site while i travel the country
LOL you should bring a shortwave radio 600 feet in the air and hear whats going on. its unbelivable.
Jason
Yes a few. i work on anything that has to be put on a tower including stacking, aligning dishes. putting new sites on towers. (co locate) work for anybody thru moterola nextel verizon all of them. The NC viper system i belive is nothing more then a state linked mot type II system. ecept youll be bable to communicate from the mountains to the beach. But where it willl prove most usefull is the Police PC's the data capabilities are getting enormus. APB and amber alert ect will be able to be posted state/us wide in seconds to every car. something happens in mecklemberg county all surrounding counties and states could be on the look out. the last viper site i belive i was on was a 800 MHz 5 omni antenna 20 foot omnies at a rad center of 255 feet 4 antennas for recive and one for transmit. thats rural installations. in a metro instal typically you see the flat panel directinal antenna system which is usually a 3 sector site with 2-3 antennas per sector. to tell you the truth. the nextel backbone isnt verymuch different. i have installed the exact same antennas for a nextel site as i have a Viper install.
so back to what i was saying in my last post i dont belive we will have encrypted microwave signals we cant listen too. be cause in FLA they do and its transfered to a analog signal to communicate with the radios. Not to mention Fla is kicking their own butts right now cause everytinme a hurricane comes thru Im in Fla. for about 2 months usually in the everglades and the keys re alighning dishes so people can talk. The Vipe system is well thought out and i belive much more reliable because its not depending on line of sight to work.
I could go on and on but if you have any more questions let me know i plan on sticking around this site while i travel the country
LOL you should bring a shortwave radio 600 feet in the air and hear whats going on. its unbelivable.
Jason
Re: YES
Interesting to hear from someone in your line of work.
Could you elaborate on your comment about VIPER reliability and line of sight considerations?
I have listened to a lot of radio but never while hanging off a 500 ft. tower!
Blazer7112 said:
Interesting to hear from someone in your line of work.
Could you elaborate on your comment about VIPER reliability and line of sight considerations?
I have listened to a lot of radio but never while hanging off a 500 ft. tower!
Blazer7112
Member
Well wind for one thing hurricaine bad weather can knock a dish ofline. with the omni and flat panel systems they just dont require any line of sight just about 5 mi. range between towers. now note tower to tower communication with this setup can communicate 15-20 miles tower transmits at about 300 watts FCC regulates exactly how much (SAR) limits for each area. but a hand held transmitter transmits 2 watts max i have see 5 watts for some fire fighters in emergency mode. so were talking about 5 mile range from tower to police givin hes in his vehical with repeater. SHP dosent have anything to worry about right now with the change as long as they stick to the major highways and places where towers exist.
i belive the troopers should keeptheir vhf radios in the back woods! LOL heck they dont work their anyways.
The more i listen to my scanners the police are always telling each other to 10-21 him on the nextel. that is what is cutting the good stuuf from the air waves.
the next 5 yrs we will triple in wierless technology no doubt im seeing it
i belive the troopers should keeptheir vhf radios in the back woods! LOL heck they dont work their anyways.
The more i listen to my scanners the police are always telling each other to 10-21 him on the nextel. that is what is cutting the good stuuf from the air waves.
the next 5 yrs we will triple in wierless technology no doubt im seeing it
PJH
Member
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- Aug 23, 2002
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- 3,621
VHF portables have a usual max of 6 watts, UHF 5 watts, 700/800 4 watts.
Depending on the actual geo terrian and equipment used, a portable radio can have quite a good distance.
Celluar infrastructure is vastly different than two-way radio setups. Don't confuse the two.
A properly built MW infracture can have distances up to 50 miles (sometimes more, but usually not) depending on wavelenght and dishes/equipment used. Here at least we are talking backhaul, not actual subscriber units.
AT&T Long Lines did this with their long distance network with analog MW at under 5 watts (if that) on many routes.
These days new monopole construction is rare, and virtutally non-exsitant in public saftey (unless co-located on an extisting tower), so MW LOS issues are a minimum.
Depending on the actual geo terrian and equipment used, a portable radio can have quite a good distance.
Celluar infrastructure is vastly different than two-way radio setups. Don't confuse the two.
A properly built MW infracture can have distances up to 50 miles (sometimes more, but usually not) depending on wavelenght and dishes/equipment used. Here at least we are talking backhaul, not actual subscriber units.
AT&T Long Lines did this with their long distance network with analog MW at under 5 watts (if that) on many routes.
These days new monopole construction is rare, and virtutally non-exsitant in public saftey (unless co-located on an extisting tower), so MW LOS issues are a minimum.
jswinney
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- Jul 30, 2005
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- 3
new system
As far as the shp getting a untrackable system that is going to happen any time soon. FIrst of all they are still on low band and will be on it for
some time cause the 800 system doesnt work in the mountains. And if you use 800 mhz you going to have to have more towers than low band ones. And shp is still using low band as there main freq. with 800 as back up.
As far as the shp getting a untrackable system that is going to happen any time soon. FIrst of all they are still on low band and will be on it for
some time cause the 800 system doesnt work in the mountains. And if you use 800 mhz you going to have to have more towers than low band ones. And shp is still using low band as there main freq. with 800 as back up.
As PJH posted, any frequency works as well as any other provided there's infrastructure to support its characteristics. Maybe those who keep spreading the BS that 800 won't work in the mountains can explain how it is that the mobile data system, which is 800 mHz, BTW, has been in service for quite some time and works rather well in the mountains, although the state needs to improve the sites by adding antennas with downtilt radiation patterns for more effective coverage. In the mountain areas where there is little to no 800 data coverage there's also little or no low band coverage either because they're located at the same sites.
The wavelength and resulting antenna's physical size at low band freqs dictates that space limitations will restrict size, and therefore compromise the available resulting gain characteristics of those antennas. The omni-directional low band antennas in use have no gain factor and have a obviously greater vertical radiation pattern than do gain antennas, and this enables them to put the signal into the valleys and coves better than will the higher gain antennas. Generally, the more gain, the more the radiation pattern is flattened in the horizontal plane. That means more signal is being radiated toward the horizon. That's all fine and dandy in the coastal plain, but in the mountains on high sites, and adding in the curvature of the earth, it means most of the signal is wasted on or above the actual horizon and upward into space.
The low band directional gain antennas in use still have a relatively good horizontal angle of radiation because the gain factor is limited by size, and also reach the valleys rather well. With a wavelength the size of 800 mHz freqs, it's easy to get lots of gain factor in a small space, but lots of gain means the signal is being radiated toward the horizon, not down into the valleys and coves, and half the energy is being uselessly radiated into the sky. This is why a downtilt pattern is needed, and that's all part of that infrastructure thing.
As to the state remaining on low band for a good while, you need to get a grip on reality. As a former NCSHP Communications and Logistics Division employee and a radio tech for 35+ years, I can tell you there is no longer much, if any, support from the manufacturers on the low band equipment. The high power base stations and Syntor mobiles are no longer available, and parts for them are no longer being manufactured. Used equipment is purchased and cannibalized when available, and the mobiles taken out of service previously are being cannibalized to repair the more promising units still in service. The low band Kenwood and Midland JUNK purchased in desperation has absolutely proven to be miserable failures at replacing anything, and have mostly been replaced by repaired older Motorola Syntors. The base stations in use are mostly tube final units and are probably older than most of the members of this forum. Besides, conventional low band is NOT spectrum efficient by anybody's standards nowdays, and because of ducting/skip propagation tendencies creating serious mobile-to-base communications problems despite PL/DPL, it's on its way out.
With the current funding, licensing, and purchasing schedule, you can expect the state to be firmly and fully operational on 800 mHz within 24 to 30 months. Yes, the mountains will require more infrastructure, i.e. money and build-out time, and will be the last areas to go online, but it's coming, and probably faster than you think.
The wavelength and resulting antenna's physical size at low band freqs dictates that space limitations will restrict size, and therefore compromise the available resulting gain characteristics of those antennas. The omni-directional low band antennas in use have no gain factor and have a obviously greater vertical radiation pattern than do gain antennas, and this enables them to put the signal into the valleys and coves better than will the higher gain antennas. Generally, the more gain, the more the radiation pattern is flattened in the horizontal plane. That means more signal is being radiated toward the horizon. That's all fine and dandy in the coastal plain, but in the mountains on high sites, and adding in the curvature of the earth, it means most of the signal is wasted on or above the actual horizon and upward into space.
The low band directional gain antennas in use still have a relatively good horizontal angle of radiation because the gain factor is limited by size, and also reach the valleys rather well. With a wavelength the size of 800 mHz freqs, it's easy to get lots of gain factor in a small space, but lots of gain means the signal is being radiated toward the horizon, not down into the valleys and coves, and half the energy is being uselessly radiated into the sky. This is why a downtilt pattern is needed, and that's all part of that infrastructure thing.
As to the state remaining on low band for a good while, you need to get a grip on reality. As a former NCSHP Communications and Logistics Division employee and a radio tech for 35+ years, I can tell you there is no longer much, if any, support from the manufacturers on the low band equipment. The high power base stations and Syntor mobiles are no longer available, and parts for them are no longer being manufactured. Used equipment is purchased and cannibalized when available, and the mobiles taken out of service previously are being cannibalized to repair the more promising units still in service. The low band Kenwood and Midland JUNK purchased in desperation has absolutely proven to be miserable failures at replacing anything, and have mostly been replaced by repaired older Motorola Syntors. The base stations in use are mostly tube final units and are probably older than most of the members of this forum. Besides, conventional low band is NOT spectrum efficient by anybody's standards nowdays, and because of ducting/skip propagation tendencies creating serious mobile-to-base communications problems despite PL/DPL, it's on its way out.
With the current funding, licensing, and purchasing schedule, you can expect the state to be firmly and fully operational on 800 mHz within 24 to 30 months. Yes, the mountains will require more infrastructure, i.e. money and build-out time, and will be the last areas to go online, but it's coming, and probably faster than you think.
Blazer7112
Member
Very interesting
yes once again im a towerhand. hve been doing alot of work in virginia mountains as well as NC mountains. We have been stacking 2-3 towers a week. funny thing is its all motorola towers or nextel.whether the prints say motorola or nextel the sites (cell, dishes Omnies ect.) the towers are getting the same configuration. this is applying to my last 3 months. at very top whether a self support or guy wire, havent done any monopoles. at the top a 9 panel antenna setup. 3 sectors Alpha, Beta, Gamma, thes antennas have these frequency ranges800-900 MHZ 2-6 GHz. the antenna stickers say a db gain of >18 these particular antennas we are setting most frequently at a 8 degree mechanical downtilt. the antennas also have a electrical downtilt of 25 degrees. usually 1 5/8" commscope coax cable. 20' below the top site is 20' omni antennas. 4 rx and 1 tx. same frequncy range as the panel antennas. and depending on if the site can get acces to a T1 line then usually have a dish or two to align. now im not told what theses systems do or whtat their for. i have nothing to do with the radios. i sweep the antennas and get a retern loss on the system and im done from there in the techies go to work.
yes once again im a towerhand. hve been doing alot of work in virginia mountains as well as NC mountains. We have been stacking 2-3 towers a week. funny thing is its all motorola towers or nextel.whether the prints say motorola or nextel the sites (cell, dishes Omnies ect.) the towers are getting the same configuration. this is applying to my last 3 months. at very top whether a self support or guy wire, havent done any monopoles. at the top a 9 panel antenna setup. 3 sectors Alpha, Beta, Gamma, thes antennas have these frequency ranges800-900 MHZ 2-6 GHz. the antenna stickers say a db gain of >18 these particular antennas we are setting most frequently at a 8 degree mechanical downtilt. the antennas also have a electrical downtilt of 25 degrees. usually 1 5/8" commscope coax cable. 20' below the top site is 20' omni antennas. 4 rx and 1 tx. same frequncy range as the panel antennas. and depending on if the site can get acces to a T1 line then usually have a dish or two to align. now im not told what theses systems do or whtat their for. i have nothing to do with the radios. i sweep the antennas and get a retern loss on the system and im done from there in the techies go to work.
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