Basement grounding prep; old wire and pipe cleanup

[TrainsOfThought]

I'm preparing my basement grounding hookups.

In the picture, the circa 1952 house electric box is grounded to the water pipe at it's basement entrance....one wire leading from the box to the pipe.

There are two (2) old TV satellite dishes, now unused, connected to this main wire.

ALL the wires are covered in various substances: green surface corrosion, dust, dirt, white block wall waterproofing paint...at the foundation the "gap" through the block had some seepage and a previous owner filled that with gobs of expanding foam which I have chipped away revealing the buried cruddy, corroded original ground wire connection with the pipe.

Anyone have any suggestions on how/what to use to clean up this mess, prepare some CLEAN wire surface to attach antenna grounds. There remains some foam in the pipe hole...what can dissolve that to clean the pipe and original wire connection?

To the right we had a total house water shutoff valve installed whereby the plumber installed a section of plastic pipe...rendering the entire remainder of galvanized pipe feed isolated/insulated forcing me to bring antenna wires to the box vs utilize that closer to the other end of the house.

Thanks for any ideas or suggestions.

 

[mmckenna]

1950's?

Yeah, hire an electrician. Seriously. If the wires look that bad, the rest of the grounding would be suspect. You don't want to disconnect the existing ground, that can be bad. Adding new/upgraded would be a wise upgrade. Relying on a questionable ground for any sort of safety isn't a good plan.

I'd really worry about that water pipe, since it looks like there is a lot of corrosion. Do. Not. Disconnect. It.

I'd have someone knowledgeable redo everything, including adding a new ground rod (maybe more than one) outside.
Especially if you are having any sort of electrical gremlins living in your home.

It's honestly pretty scary. That would fall under my "ten foot pole" rule of touching things. Once you start touching it, you may find that the corrosion is really bad, you could get a water leak, shock, etc.

But, your choice. I'd just be super careful. Wire brush (fine bristles), maybe a bit of emery paper. I'd avoid any chemicals as that could increase the corrosion issues. I'd be super concerned about touching that water pipe connection. Any electrolysis could have eaten away at the pipe, and a flooded basement would not be good. Sometimes as licensed contractor with insurance is worth the price.

 

[TrainsOfThought]

That shiny new big grey wire/conduit is the replacement underground main to the garage/shop that failed last year...it just rotted through and had disintegrated...had to trench from the house to garage and redo everything including upgrade the garage electric AND install a separate ground rod just for the garage. I'm with you...I'm looking at This Old Mess thinking lordy where to start...IF to start. I'm glad I'm not the only one to think taking 3 giant steps back and get a Pro...handy in no way describes me. I'll just chalk it up to "this years project" and since I work out of the house a good tax writeoff as well

 

[mmckenna]

I like doing things myself, and I ~might~ tackle a job like that on my own. But I don't have a basement to flood. My panel is in my garage. I can see the ground connection.

The water pipe ground is what concerns me, since it's obvious it has been wet, and there may be corrosion/electrolysis. Risk of a damaged pipe under that clamp and it flooding the basement would be my #1 concern. If you shut off the water at the city meter, then drained the system, then shut off all the power at the main, then work on it, then maybe. But I'd still be nervous if it was me.

Sometimes letting the other guys insurance cover your butt is a good option.

 

[MUTNAV]

It's been touched on, but I think the plumbing may need a lot of help also.

Until you get the contractor maybe you could make some electrical measurements though, do you have lots of power running on the ground (clamp on ammeter)? are neutral and ground at the same potential?.... It's too bad sacrificial anodes aren't on these things to let you know if things are going bad, and to protect your pipes.

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

Found your solution:

 

[markclark]

You really need an electrical contractor to clean this up. Also, you need to drive a 5/8" X 8' ground rod outside. I wouldn't trust that old corroded waterpipe as a good ground. You most likely need a panel upgrade and new wiring to your shack so you have at least one grounded circuit for your electronics. I have rewired many similar old houses and always find surprises, by that I mean bootleg wiring.

 

[MUTNAV]

Also, just FYI,
1. The ground rod at the garage also needs to be connected to your houses ground.
2. The white wire that corroded through needs to be one rated for underground direct burial (home depot or lows should have info on it).


Thanks
Joel

 

[TrainsOfThought]

It's going on a week since my topic post so here's an update:

- I've chatted with several rural electricians re this situation and received NO confirming phone calls back to look at this situation and update the house grounding i.e. it's a waste of their time, they can't be bothered. I WILL press on re that as a long term project...

- With no major disturbances to the wire/pipe setup, I cleaned everything with CLR, then Brasso, then acetone and a once-over with emery cloth to clean up the metal and wires of oxidation and deposits, remove remaining bits of gap foam, get a shine back on the wires and the copper pipe nipple transitioning to the plastic pipe, scrub this section of wall and start applying new coats of Drylock paint. I had space for two pipe grounding clamps (2 screws on one of the connectors) on the copper pipe nipple I'll use for TEMPORARY grounding of several scanner antennas so I can keep the radio project progressing, and keep pushing for house grounding renovation.

- The other end of the house will have a do-it-myself coax grounding rod/bracket arrangement for lightening arrestors under the home office pass-through window...this idea courtesy of to-be-purchased parts from DX Engineering.

- Last pic is where the grounding and coax from the old unused Direct TV satellite dish, adjacent to the electric panels and ground wire that connects

 

[MUTNAV]

It's going on a week since my topic post so here's an update:

- I've chatted with several rural electricians re this situation and received NO confirming phone calls back to look at this situation and update the house grounding i.e. it's a waste of their time, they can't be bothered. I WILL press on re that as a long term project...

- With no major disturbances to the wire/pipe setup, I cleaned everything with CLR, then Brasso, then acetone and a once-over with emery cloth to clean up the metal and wires of oxidation and deposits, remove remaining bits of gap foam, get a shine back on the wires and the copper pipe nipple transitioning to the plastic pipe, scrub this section of wall and start applying new coats of Drylock paint. I had space for two pipe grounding clamps (2 screws on one of the connectors) on the copper pipe nipple I'll use for TEMPORARY grounding of several scanner antennas so I can keep the radio project progressing, and keep pushing for house grounding renovation.

- The other end of the house will have a do-it-myself coax grounding rod/bracket arrangement for lightening arrestors under the home office pass-through window...this idea courtesy of to-be-purchased parts from DX Engineering.

- Last pic is where the grounding and coax from the old unused Direct TV satellite dish, adjacent to the electric panels and ground wire that connects

Don't forget, all ground rods have to be tied together...

There are some good grounding references here on RR.

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

Just make sure that if you install any new ground rods, that they all get bonded to the original ground for the electrical panel. Last thing you want is two different ground systems that are isolated from each other.

 

[TrainsOfThought]

"Don't forget, all ground rods have to be tied together...
There are some good grounding references here on RR.
Thanks-Joel"

"Just make sure that if you install any new ground rods, that they all get bonded to the original ground for the electrical panel. Last thing you want is two different ground systems that are isolated from each other. - mmckenna"

Grounding connection points (electric panel vs home office) are at different ends of the house...that need to be connected (and as one other mentioned, last year's garage electric upgade w/garage grounding rod should have been also connected...in the trench, back to the electric panel).

Trenching a connecting wire is no-go due to multiple sidewalks. Laying in bed last night I pondered running the office-to-panel through the basement with insulated standoffs on the ceiling joists...a straight shot. THIS idea was shot down in the accompanying RR thread and messages to me re not a good idea to introduce lightening into the house Connecting multiple ground rods

The only remaining option is to run the jacketted grounding wire along the perimeter of the house attached to the foundation or siding with clips and entering at basement at the old satellite dish wall entry point with a new hole in the wall. That'll take about 90 feet of solid copper grounding wire vs ~ 30 if run through the basement.

Back in the 90's I sure lived in ignorant bliss with my Cushcraft Ringo Ranger ARX-2B and Diamond discone simply ground clamped to the city rowhouse water pipes. Nothing for coax...straight to the scanners. Fast forward 30+ years and while I understand protections and grounding (thanks to RR and the ARRL book) I have a feeling most people do little or minimal of this ("hams and others being cheap") and take the risks. What I do, based on circumstance isn't going to be perfect or by-the-book but my best effort to cover my *ss and equipment and home...finding an electrician willing to upgrade house grounding to outdoor rod is going to be my biggest headache for a perfect as possible solution.