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Basic Questions Regarding PL Tones
- Thread starter gman4661
- Start date
mrsvensven
Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2006
- Messages
- 174
The short answer to both questions is no.
PL is like a mask that prevents you from hearing another user. It doesn't actually remove their signal if it is degrading your ability to hear your own users. While PL may reduce the annoyance of hearing another user, if they were causing you harmful interference (any signal that actually covered up your own users voice and prevented you from hearing your own users talking), PL will not solve this problem at all.
PL is like a mask that prevents you from hearing another user. It doesn't actually remove their signal if it is degrading your ability to hear your own users. While PL may reduce the annoyance of hearing another user, if they were causing you harmful interference (any signal that actually covered up your own users voice and prevented you from hearing your own users talking), PL will not solve this problem at all.
N1EXA
FT8 Huntin Mudd Duck on the deep end of the pond !
Think as PL is a key !
1. No. A PL tone is audio - just like voice, only much lower in frequency.
2. As noted above, PL would not prevent any RF interference that might affect your signal. It can, however, prevent any audio interference from being heard while the radio is muted by PL.
As written above, except at the very fringe of coverage, some hardware can have trouble decoding PL and close squelch intermittently when you might otherwise be able to understand what was being said.
lenk911
Member
Excellent replies to your question. Let an old radio engineer throw some history into the responses. The PL tone scheme, technically called Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System, CTCSS, was enacted by the Electronics Industry Association a predecessor to the TIA as a standard in about 1948. Initially tones were spaced 3.5% apart from about 100-206.5 HZ.
There were some disagreements between Motorola and GE. GE developed solid state tone modules while Motorola still used reeds. With tone modules, GE could use tones below 100 HZ without any issue. Motorola's reeds were sluggish and as big as a Snickers bar. But the tones were extended downward to 67.0 on the 3.5% spacing.
The tone, 203.5, is not on the 3.5% spacing from 199.9 I believe came from GE as a replacement for 199.9 Hz. Tones 67.0, 118.8, 179.9 and 199.9 were forbidden use by GE engineering because they were multiples of the US and international power line frequencies. AC hum on the phone line base station control circuit would false the CTCSS decoders. The non standard tone 210.7 was used by all-call hospital radio systems to avoid interference. it is indexed from 203.5 HZ not 206.5.
Tones above 206.5 were not standardized due to the pre-emphasis/de-emphasis circuits (they attenuate below 300 HZ) in a FM radio. These would attenuate the tones to an unreliable state and the user could hear the whistle.
By the way the same process was used to standardize the paging tones we call Motorola Quick Call today. GE of course developed Tone 99 as an enhancement to the standard paging standard.
In the early days of two way radio, GE and Motorola had about 40% of the market each and were fierce competitors.
There were some disagreements between Motorola and GE. GE developed solid state tone modules while Motorola still used reeds. With tone modules, GE could use tones below 100 HZ without any issue. Motorola's reeds were sluggish and as big as a Snickers bar. But the tones were extended downward to 67.0 on the 3.5% spacing.
The tone, 203.5, is not on the 3.5% spacing from 199.9 I believe came from GE as a replacement for 199.9 Hz. Tones 67.0, 118.8, 179.9 and 199.9 were forbidden use by GE engineering because they were multiples of the US and international power line frequencies. AC hum on the phone line base station control circuit would false the CTCSS decoders. The non standard tone 210.7 was used by all-call hospital radio systems to avoid interference. it is indexed from 203.5 HZ not 206.5.
Tones above 206.5 were not standardized due to the pre-emphasis/de-emphasis circuits (they attenuate below 300 HZ) in a FM radio. These would attenuate the tones to an unreliable state and the user could hear the whistle.
By the way the same process was used to standardize the paging tones we call Motorola Quick Call today. GE of course developed Tone 99 as an enhancement to the standard paging standard.
In the early days of two way radio, GE and Motorola had about 40% of the market each and were fierce competitors.
There's a nice writeup at Repeater Builder including a picture of the TU-333 "Vibrasponder" copper reed and others.
lenk911
Member
In the 1950's the balance of the market was held by
RCA- Who exited the market in the 1970's
Comco-eventually purchased by EF Johnson
Link-Who didn't survive the 50's
Some Canadian and European manufacturers like Marconi, Pye, Storno
By the mid 1970's Motorola had nearly 70% of the market.
speedway_navigator
Member
When I started in 1983 we had a client with old RCA radios, the control head reminded me of Johnny 5 in the movie Short Circuit.
We sold Standard radios at ComTrack when I was with them in 1985, they seemed to go away about the time Radius came in.
When I did X games we had a mix of ESPN Kenwoods and Bearcom Motorolas, there was a tone that was incompatible between the 2.
We sold Standard radios at ComTrack when I was with them in 1985, they seemed to go away about the time Radius came in.
When I did X games we had a mix of ESPN Kenwoods and Bearcom Motorolas, there was a tone that was incompatible between the 2.
There's a lot of change in this post, but I'll throw an extra two cents in the kitty....
Some mobile radios can be programmed to where the PL code is defeated when the microphone is removed from the hang-up clip. The feature is there to ensure you don't talk over someone that's already using the frequency with a different PL. If the radio gets installed outside of a vehicle, like on someone's desk, the likelihood of them remembering to put the mic back on the clip isn't great. So the user may complain about interference.
Some mobile radios can be programmed to where the PL code is defeated when the microphone is removed from the hang-up clip. The feature is there to ensure you don't talk over someone that's already using the frequency with a different PL. If the radio gets installed outside of a vehicle, like on someone's desk, the likelihood of them remembering to put the mic back on the clip isn't great. So the user may complain about interference.
lenk911
Member
Forced monitoring is a FCC requirement when your system shares its service contour with another co-channel licensee(s). You are required to protect the co-channel systems within your contour. Generally this occurs in the business radio service (90.35), 150 and 450 MHz bands. If you are on a trunk system with the control channel class listed as an FB8, you own the contour.
Generally VHF/UHF public safety is the sole occupant inside of their contour trunking or not. Just because you can hear a co-channel station doesn't mean they are inside of your contour! The whole purpose of the safe harbor tables in part 90 is to identify your contour and manage it to what is required for your use not for your ability to talk forever.
FYI The service contours are 37 dbu for VHF and 39 dbu for UHF with interference contours 19 db lower than the service contours. Safe Harbor assures that within your contour, your system captures your signal. It takes some skillful math or a computer to calculate these for your system. The system designer or the frequency coordinator probably did it when it was licensed.
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