Bayshore Mall System

[fmoore]

I am picking up DMR DCC=4 461.737500
TG 41 Loss Prevention/Security with RIDs 4, 331, 340, 339, 341 All Slot=1 on
TG 42 french coms with RID 1 on Slot=2 - Sounds like foot patrol
Both TGs have been heard on both frequencies.
I see two frequencies in the system based on the TAFL search.

TAFL Search Results

Use this online tool to search for frequencies, locations, or licensees. Infomation comes from Industry Canada's database of frequency allocations.

tafl.mckie.ca

 

[IdleMonitor]

What's the other frequency you mention? There's only 1, the other is the input 5mhz up.

And are you sure your findings are Bayshore? I see other entries in Ottawa as well with that frequency also. TAFL Search Results

I am picking up DMR DCC=4 461.737500
TG 41 Loss Prevention/Security with RIDs 4, 331, 340, 339, 341 All Slot=1 on
TG 42 french coms with RID 1 on Slot=2 - Sounds like foot patrol
Both TGs have been heard on both frequencies.
I see two frequencies in the system based on the TAFL search.

TAFL Search Results

Use this online tool to search for frequencies, locations, or licensees. Infomation comes from Industry Canada's database of frequency allocations.

tafl.mckie.ca

 

[DaveH]

461.7375 is another of these multi-user low-power channels so what you hear depends a lot on how close, but
what Frank lists seems to fit Bayshore. It's really just one frequency.

Repeater input frequency offsets are typically +5.0000 or +5.0125MHz but in Quebec could also be +4.98750 .

Dave

 

[fmoore]

What's the other frequency you mention? There's only 1, the other is the input 5mhz up.

And are you sure your findings are Bayshore? I see other entries in Ottawa as well with that frequency also. TAFL Search Results

I am not 100 percent sure it is Bayshore that is why I put it here. I would like to have some solid evidence. However based on that TAFL, the conversation regarding P3 and a bus tunnel access gives a lot of circumstantial pieces that lead to that. And yes it is very low power and I am super close to and my balcony faces it. I would not have found this if it weren't for being able to see the signals on both frequencies with the new RTL SDR set up. It does sound like a small difference but they are both separate and are extremely close to the Carleton U frequency which while monitoring that that showed up next to the signal.
The other item to note is the closest mall with an OC transpo hub/tunnel with the need for four active security guards is in Kanata or east end. For my area Lincoln Fields and Carlingwood are the closest malls with what was in house security. Carlingwood has contracted out their security to Guarda and Lincoln Fields is in a transition phase so I am not sure what their security arrangement is.
The rest of that TAFL search list has items that are not malls or security dealing with loss prevention. Then again this all can be a coincidence.

 

[IdleMonitor]

I'd say if the description of what's being talked about doesn't match the other results like ya say then it's likely Bayshore.

Nice find btw, I actually put this into my radio the last time I was in Ottawa as I stumbled upon it in the tafl search in hopes of catching something on it. You beat me to it. Good job.

Once you're able to maybe identify some more activity on the talkgroups then it could be added to the database at some point. By the looks of it it's just a simple conventional DMR repeater.

With a decent antenna setup I'd imagine there's lots of low power DMR activity that could be found within the city. The SDR can come in quite handy when trying to find active frequencies within a certain amount of spectrum better then doing a search on a scanner.

As far as slots are concerned. Whenever I program anything in my radio. Unless I specifically hear 2 different conversations happening at the same time on the same frequency then I just program the slot as 'any' instead of Slot 1 or 2 as an example.

 

[fmoore]

I was able to quickly visit Bayshore Mall yesterday and heard 5 bars on this system in the garage with my 436. Which means to me it is this mall. But if we need someone else to check this out to confirm. The next item for me is to plan on system analyze it on site.
How I programmed it is:
DMR single Frequency
Site 1 461.737500
Site 2 466.737500
Or is there a correct way to incorporate both frequencies in the same site as I don't believe they are separate locations?
Also I would like to add/correct that TG 42 is the cleaning crew.

 

[DaveH]

I was able to quickly visit Bayshore Mall yesterday and heard 5 bars on this system in the garage with my 436. Which means to me it is this mall. But if we need someone else to check this out to confirm. The next item for me is to plan on system analyze it on site.
How I programmed it is:
DMR single Frequency
Site 1 461.737500
Site 2 466.737500
Or is there a correct way to incorporate both frequencies in the same site as I don't believe they are separate locations?
Also I would like to add/correct that TG 42 is the cleaning crew.

This is a 1-repeater system, not two distinct channels or sites. 466.7375 is input to 461.7375 and should be ignored as it has the same activity as the output; unless there is evidence of activity on the higher frequency which is not retransmitted, which would be unusual.

Are you familiar with how repeaters work?

Dave

 

[IdleMonitor]

First things first. Get rid of the 466.7375 frequency. That is the input to the repeater. You don't need it.

Program it as a DMR one frequency and use 461.7375 only.

I was able to quickly visit Bayshore Mall yesterday and heard 5 bars on this system in the garage with my 436. Which means to me it is this mall. But if we need someone else to check this out to confirm. The next item for me is to plan on system analyze it on site.
How I programmed it is:
DMR single Frequency
Site 1 461.737500
Site 2 466.737500
Or is there a correct way to incorporate both frequencies in the same site as I don't believe they are separate locations?
Also I would like to add/correct that TG 42 is the cleaning crew.

 

[fmoore]

That makes things simple. I will make that change and see what the analysis reveals.

This is a 1-repeater system, not two distinct channels or sites. 466.7375 is input to 461.7375 and should be ignored as it has the same activity as the output; unless there is evidence of activity on the higher frequency which is not retransmitted, which would be unusual.

Are you familiar with how repeaters work?

Dave

Dave,
I am taking steps to learn as its important to understand it to interpret this kind of data. A quick google search as clarified the question on why we ignore the repeater input. Until now I only understood that it would repeat transitions but this specific explanation of how it works makes a lot more sense on why we can ignore these frequencies.
Frank

 

[fmoore]

I just heard one of the security units mention they were talking to a Starbucks employee on the 3rd level. Bayshore has a Starbucks on the third level. Second there was talk about an elevator that has at minimum five levels. So that to me nails it as Bayshore Mall.
The next problem.
I am registering from my home data streaming on the SDR saying its CAP+ and DMR(for some transmissions it logs one and then the other) so I am not 100 percent which one the system actually is.

 

[gary123]

No CC means not a cap+. That leaves either cap max or my bet conventional TG/ TS based repeater.

 

[fmoore]

No CC means not a cap+. That leaves either cap max or my bet conventional TG/ TS based repeater.

When it does show it as DMR it has a CC=4 as in the original post but it isn't consistent which has me unsure about it. I am going to have to check this out both with my mobile and my SDR on location to get all the right details with a natural signal. I'll try and go this weekend.

 

[gary123]

Poor phrasing on my part CC = Control channel not the connect tone. A connect tone of 4 is perfectly valid.

 

[slicerwizard]

DMR doesn't have connect tones. DMR uses digital color codes (DCCs)

 

[gary123]

I cant win LOL. Too many modes too many names for the same basic thing. Ohh I miss the good old crystal scanner days where a 8 Channel scanner was considered over kill.

 

[fmoore]

So after my trip to the mall today with both the SDR and the Mobile I was able to confirm that it is a DMR with a CC=4. Now what do we need to get this its place in the DB?
461.7375 Main
466.7375 Repeater

 

[IdleMonitor]

Again, 461.7375 is the only frequency you need. Forget about 466.7375 it is the input to the repeater. You only need the Output.

Submit this and the Admins will take care of it.

Bayshore Shopping Centre DMR Conventional
461.7375 CC 4
Talkgroup 41 Loss Prevention/Security
Talkgroup 42 Cleaning Crew

So after my trip to the mall today with both the SDR and the Mobile I was able to confirm that it is a DMR with a CC=4. Now what do we need to get this its place in the DB?
461.7375 Main
466.7375 Repeater

 

[fmoore]

It's been submitted.
Thanks for all the help!

 

[DaveH]

Repeater input when confirmed can be submitted to DB as info, although people generally
listen to the output frequency. It's useful to know when searching if activity is simplex,
or associated with known (or undiscovered) repeater.

Regarding timeslot wildcard (*) for conventional system I am not sure this is the case.
Usually, each TG is associated with one timeslot. This not be a hard rule, but by convention.
You need to watch activity while it is happening, or check DSD+ Event file. For conventional
system it shows TG/TS for each call (unfortunately DCC is not logged). For trunked system,
TG and Channel are logged (as the system can assign call to either TS1 or TS2).

Dave


PS may consider opening new thread pertaining to low-power simplex and site repeaters (<10W) in the Ottawa area.

 

[mciupa]

I cannot leave a TimeSlot empty. When a submission arrives without that data, I am forced to list it as SL* (Wildcard) until that information is submitted, otherwise it won't list.