BCD396T APCO-25 Programming Tip

[duckbird]

This could be helpful when programming your BCD396T for digital transmissions.

If your System Type is Motorola Type II Smart Zone and your System Voice is Analog and APCO-25, the BCD396T should be set for 800 Standard


If your System Type is Project 25 Standard and your System Voice is APCO-25, the BCD396T should be set for P25

 

[ofd8001]

Thanks for the info - I've wondered how you go about programming systems that are mixed analog and P25.

 

[W2SJW]

There is no such thing - If a system is a 'true' P25 system, it cannot have analog capabilities at all.

If you are hearing a half-digital, half-analog system, you are listening to a Motorola ASTRO Type-II 3600-baud system, and should program it accordingly via the band that it's in.

I think Uniden should add in a future firmware update a minor change on the display - where you see LNK, DAT, & P25 show up, the P25 should only come on when the system IS a P25 system. All other digital systems, or ASTRO conventional should display DIG instead (shouldn't be that hard to do!).

 

[ofd8001]

The following comes from RR Database on Indiana's SAFE-T system:

System Name: Indiana Project Hoosier SAFE-T
Location: Statewide, IN
County: Statewide
System Type: Motorola Type II SmartZone Omnilink
System Voice: Analog and APCO-25 Common Air Interface
Sysid: A40A
Sysid 2: 7829
Sysid 3: A40B
Last Updated: 10-13-2005 16:11 Changed Site-319
Hits: 43114

Are you saying the RR database is wrong when it lists the voice channels as being Analog and APCO 25?

 

[N_Jay]

There is no such thing - If a system is a 'true' P25 system, it cannot have analog capabilities at all.

If you are hearing a half-digital, half-analog system, you are listening to a Motorola ASTRO Type-II 3600-baud system, and should program it accordingly via the band that it's in.

I think Uniden should add in a future firmware update a minor change on the display - where you see LNK, DAT, & P25 show up, the P25 should only come on when the system IS a P25 system. All other digital systems, or ASTRO conventional should display DIG instead (shouldn't be that hard to do!).

I think you are drawing lines where lines do not exist.

A system can be P25 and be conventional (And can be mixed mode with analog)
A system can be Motorola Type-II trunking and use P25 voice channels (and can be mixed mode with analog).
A system can be P25 trunking and then has to be P25 on the voice channels.

These may be seen as different amounts of "P25-nes", but are all P-25 systems.

 

[W2SJW]

I think you are drawing lines where lines do not exist.

A system can be P25 and be conventional (And can be mixed mode with analog)
A system can be Motorola Type-II trunking and use P25 voice channels (and can be mixed mode with analog).
A system can be P25 trunking and then has to be P25 on the voice channels.

These may be seen as different amounts of "P25-nes", but are all P-25 systems.

The way I was taught about a year ago is that all 'true' P25 systems where the 9600 baud systems that had no backwards compatibility to analog. I had someone here on the forums tell me that a 3600-baud all-ASTRO system that has not a lick of analog on it ever (ie - Philadelphia), is not truly 'APCO-25 Phase-1' compliant. Sorry, just going by what I was told...

 

[N_Jay]

The way I was taught about a year ago is that all 'true' P25 systems where the 9600 baud systems that had no backwards compatibility to analog. I had someone here on the forums tell me that a 3600-baud all-ASTRO system that has not a lick of analog on it ever (ie - Philadelphia), is not truly 'APCO-25 Phase-1' compliant. Sorry, just going by what I was told...

A simple subject, overcomplicated by too many people with 1/2 the information trying to explain it!

The P25 standards (actually TIA,-102 series of standards) are a suite of standards. They define many different attributes of a system.
The air interface (Vocoder, channel coding, and modulation)
The secure coding (Encryption system, over the air re-keying, etc.)
The Trunking control protocol
The data protocol
and coming soon an Inter-system Interface Standard, a new air interface for TDMA, and other enhancements.

The standards are built on top of each other to allow the design of many different configurations of equipment and systems. It does NOT define a single system design.


Maybe the person explained it wrong, maybe the person did not know, maybe you understood it wrong. :twisted: :roll:

 

[ofd8001]

I don't know where the other fellow is coming from, but here's why I'm interested in knowing. I want to program the Indiana SAFE-T system, which has both analog and P25 voice channels.

In the 396 programming you have two choices, one is 800 Motorola type 2 Standard, and the other is Motorola P25. You gotta pick one or the other. I don't know which to select.

 

[rhutch]

Go with the Mot Type 2. It seems sometimes people here have a hard time answering a direct question. They are more interested in showing how "smart" they are.

 

[N_Jay]

I don't know where the other fellow is coming from, but here's why I'm interested in knowing. I want to program the Indiana SAFE-T system, which has both analog and P25 voice channels.

In the 396 programming you have two choices, one is 800 Motorola type 2 Standard, and the other is Motorola P25. You gotta pick one or the other. I don't know which to select.

From what I understand (I don't use a scanner, so I don't KNOW), you are selecting the type of control channel.

You choices are

1) MOTOROLA type 2, witch is the Motorola 3600 BPS control channel trunking. It supports analog, Motorola Astro (pre-P25 proprietary digital), and P25 digital voice channels.
This is what SAFE-T is.

2) P25 standards trunking, (misnamed Motorola P25) which is p25 standard 9600 BPS control channel trunking and only supports P25 voice channels.

 

[avistow]

I too was confused about this subject... Since here in Ontario, the Provincial Police are Digital VHF trunking, and the Provincial Ambulance are VHF trunking (but they share the same system).

So yes, the "Motorola VHF Type 2" is the system to go with in this case... But it does get confusing when the P25 pops up on the screen when the Provincial Police start talking. Meh, as long as it works, that is all I care about!

 

[N_Jay]

I too was confused about this subject... Since here in Ontario, the Provincial Police are Digital VHF trunking, and the Provincial Ambulance are VHF trunking (but they share the same system).

So yes, the "Motorola VHF Type 2" is the system to go with in this case... But it does get confusing when the P25 pops up on the screen when the Provincial Police start talking. Meh, as long as it works, that is all I care about!

The scanner is telling you that the channel it is receiving is P25 Digital.

Why is that confusing?

 

[Voyager]

I think you are drawing lines where lines do not exist.

A system can be P25 and be conventional (And can be mixed mode with analog)
A system can be Motorola Type-II trunking and use P25 voice channels (and can be mixed mode with analog).
A system can be P25 trunking and then has to be P25 on the voice channels.

These may be seen as different amounts of "P25-nes", but are all P-25 systems.

Example 1 is not a P25 system. A P25 SYSTEM must have 9600 control channels and cannot have any analog voice at all. Zip. Zero. Nada. Name one 9600 system that has analog TGs. You won't find one.

Your second example is not a P25 system. It's a system that is only P16 compliant, but NOT P25 compliant. Even if PARTS of the system are P25 compliant, it must ALL be P25 compliant to be a P25 system.

Your third example is the only one that is truly a P25 system.

Program your scanner based on the SYSTEM, not based on the fact that it may use P25 compatible voice channels. For the RR site, the line that matters, and the ONLY one that matters for programming a P25 scanner is "System Type:". If it says P25 standard, program it as P25. If it says something else such as "Motorola Type II SmartZone Omnilink", it's NOT a P25 SYSTEM.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

I too was confused about this subject... Since here in Ontario, the Provincial Police are Digital VHF trunking, and the Provincial Ambulance are VHF trunking (but they share the same system).

So yes, the "Motorola VHF Type 2" is the system to go with in this case... But it does get confusing when the P25 pops up on the screen when the Provincial Police start talking. Meh, as long as it works, that is all I care about!

That means it's decoding P25 VOICE data. It is not monitoring the system at that point - it is only monitoring the voice channel.

The same thing happens when you monitor a conventional P25 channel (which is also not a P25 system).

As I tried to illustrate above, you have to differentiate the system from the parts. The USA flag is not a RED flag - despite having parts of it that are red. Similarly, a TRS is not a P25 system just because it has parts of it (the voice channels, or SOME of them on some systems) that are P25. I believe the Bell Fleetnet system is an example of a system that has many 'colors' - P25 voice and analog voice.

This is sometimes called a P16 system because it meets all of the P16 specs, but not not fully comply with P25 standards. Some people don't like that term because it's not officially called a P16 system, so for those people I call it a Ralph system (just picking a name for it other than P16). Right, NJ?

Joe M.

 

[N_Jay]

Example 1 is not a P25 system. A P25 SYSTEM must have 9600 control channels and cannot have any analog voice at all. Zip. Zero. Nada. Name one 9600 system that has analog TGs. You won't find one.
Joe M.

Where does it say that a "SYSTEM" must be a trunked system. I design lots of systems for agencies, some are trunked, some are conventional, most are mixed to so extent.
Heck some are data systems.
You are making the mistaken jump, that the word "SYSTEM" means TRUNKED SYSTEM.

And yes you are correct, that the current P25 trunking control standard does not support analog voice channels. (I think I already said that.)

Your second example is not a P25 system. It's a system that is only P16 compliant, but NOT P25 compliant. Even if PARTS of the system are P25 compliant, it must ALL be P25 compliant to be a P25 system.

Where do you get this strict interpretation? Have you asked for consensus from the TIA standards committee? :roll:

Since P25 is an evolving standard, does every P25 system all of a sudden stop being a "P25 system"when a new specification is added to the standard? :roll:

You have also jumped to the mistaken conclusion that P25 and P16 are somehow related. I can build a P25 system that is NOT P16 compliant.

P16 is a functional specification defining the minimum operational features for a public safety trunked system.
P25 is a suite of technical standards defining specifications for intercompatible radio digital radio systems.

Your third example is the only one that is truly a P25 system.

Program your scanner based on the SYSTEM, not based on the fact that it may use P25 compatible voice channels. For the RR site, the line that matters, and the ONLY one that matters for programming a P25 scanner is "System Type:". If it says P25 standard, program it as P25. If it says something else such as "Motorola Type II SmartZone Omnilink", it's NOT a P25 SYSTEM.

Joe M.

Yes you are right. As I said before, you need to program your scanner according to the type of TRUNKING CONTROL CHANNEL a trunked system uses.

 

[WayneH]

A 3600 Motorola system using IMBE digital (be it mixed mode or digital only) is not a P25 system. It does not comply with the P25 standard as outlined in the documents. It just happens to use the same vocoder as chosen by the standard.

In order for a trunked system to be P25 compliant is must conform to characteristics as seen in use by systems/networks using a 9600 control channel.

-Wayne

 

[Voyager]

A 3600 Motorola system using IMBE digital (be it mixed mode or digital only) is not a P25 system. It does not comply with the P25 standard as outlined in the documents. It just happens to use the same vocoder as chosen by the standard.

In order for a trunked system to be P25 compliant is must conform to characteristics as seen in use by systems/networks using a 9600 control channel.

-Wayne

What he said. I can't improve on that. The P25 standard DOES specify a 9600 control channel. No, I didn't check with any committee. I can read.

Yes, a radio system can be conventional. I was talking about trunked systems.

Joe M.

 

[N_Jay]

A 3600 Motorola system using IMBE digital (be it mixed mode or digital only) is not a P25 system. It does not comply with the P25 standard as outlined in the documents. It just happens to use the same vocoder as chosen by the standard.

In order for a trunked system to be P25 compliant is must conform to characteristics as seen in use by systems/networks using a 9600 control channel.

-Wayne

A Motorola 3000 BPS control channel trunked system, (Smartnet, Smartzone, etc.) uses a lot more then just the IMBE vocoder. The digital voice used on the voice channels adheres to the P25 CIA, and if encrypted follows the P25 encryption standard.

The TIA-102 series of standards DOES NOT require adherence to all standards to use portions of the standard.

I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for some people to grasp.

You are drawing a line between what is, and what is not, a P25 system that I doubt anyone involved with the standard would draw.

 

[N_Jay]

What he said. I can't improve on that. The P25 standard DOES specify a 9600 control channel. No, I didn't check with any committee. I can read.

So when another P25 document is finished (there are many in process) like the ISSI, then all the P25 systems in existence that don't has standardised ISSI will immediately stop being P25 systems? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Let me ask;
"Does a P25 System that does not include data services not qualify as a P25 system?"
"Must a P25 system implement encryption since it is in the standard?"
"Must an encrypted system support OTAR?"

This is a building block set of standards, not a monolithic standard. :wink:

 

[WayneH]

The TIA-102 series of standards DOES NOT require adherence to all standards to use portions of the standard.

It does to be advertised as "P25 Compliant." Yes, 3600 trunking uses portions of the P25 standard but it doesn't make it a full P25 system. Why is that hard to understand? The argument is what's compliant and what isn't; not what's partially or what has some (but not all) characteristics. Motorola 3.x/4.x/3600 trunking is not P25 Compliant. If you think it is, cite where. I have some of the TIA-102 documents and can look it up.

This has been argued before and it was stated that 3600 trunking was NOT a P25 Trunked system because it uses some features described in the P25 Standard.

-Wayne