Best digital format for business use?

[prcguy]

I see most of the new UHF repeaters go up to about 40w and all the existing repeaters are 100w. With an expected slight loss in range going to digital if it were me I would be looking for a 100w repeater not counting what the final digital mode will be.

I'm also used to dealing with beefy robust 100w repeaters like Master IIs, Quantars, etc, and in the $10k on up range new. Some of the repeaters shown look a little on the light duty side. Would you guys using this stuff put the repeaters shown so far in the same reliably league as the big old Motorola and GE dinosaurs?

Another thing I'm concerned about is the RF performance at very busy sites. For my personal equipment at these types of sites I'm used to installing big 8-cavity receive preselectors for master receive antennas, which go a long way toward protecting the repeater receivers from nearby TV transmitters, etc. The existing GE repeaters are using a simple 3-cavity duplexer and the MSF-5000s are using their internal duplexers with no external filtering to supplement the receiver and with their own company owned antenna. No filtered master receive systems used here and that says a lot about the performance of the existing repeaters. Will any of the top of the line Kenwood or MOTOTRBO repeaters survive on some of the busiest mountain tops without a lot of extra receive filtering?

In narrowing things down a bit I'll rule out Tait and Codan as I have yet to meet anyone around here with any experience with those brands. They may be popular outside the US but a brand the customer has never heard of or none of the local radio dealers have experience with would be a hard sell.

Handhelds and mobile radios would also be part of a new system so if a particular mode like NXDN has advantages and available repeaters are robust but the field radios are of mediocre quality, that also must be considered.

This particular customer has enjoyed a good 30+yr run with their existing repeaters and have probably changed out supporting radios a couple of times and the goal is to have similar reliability and life span.
prcguy

 

[mmckenna]

Good questions.

The 800MHz NexEdge system I have replaced a (not so well) aging SmartNet system running 5 MFS-5000's. The MFS-5K's required frequent adjustments to keep them on channel.
Haven't had that issue with the Kenwood NXR-900's, and they've been running non-stop for about 6 years now.

The 5 NXR-900's are running at about 300mw output into 80 watt Crescend amplifiers. The control channels change each night and 4 of the 5 get used. No issues with any of the components.

I purchased a spare NXR-900 and s spare amp when I purchased the system, but haven't needed them. The 5 repeaters have stayed dead on frequency and the power levels have remained constant. Other than some occasional dusting, I haven't done anything to them.

As for high RF sites, I probably don't qualify there. The 800MHz system is about 150 yards from my other site running a couple of 100 watt VHF repeaters (MTR-2000 and Quantar) as well as a 100 watt 800MHz Quantar. Also at this site is a cellular DAS system running on the same tower, Sprint/Nextel, Verizon, T-Mobile/MetroPCS and AT&T are all there. A 22KW FM broadcast station and a few full power cellular carriers are about 1/2 mile away.

When I switched from the SmartNet system to the NexEdge, I reused the existing transmit combiner and receive multicoupler, since they were working well and good units. We did add a tower top preamplifier on the RX side due to a bit less coverage compared to the old analog system.

As for the portables and mobiles, most of my users are public works type users. Plumbers, electricians, grounds, garbage trucks, buses, etc. Only issue I've seen is that some of the keys on the NX-410s are starting to have their numbers wear off. NX-900 mobiles haven't had any issues. Some of these radios get beat pretty hard.

I did recently start using a few of the NX-5700 VHF mobiles, in public safety use, no issues so far and they seem to like them.

Our PD is running about 20 or so NX-210 VHF portables. They've been out there almost 5 years now being carried by sworn officers. No issues other than speaker mic replacements, new batteries, etc.

I can really only compare them to what we had before: A crap load of MTS-2000's and various MCS-2000's, Spectras, XTS-1500, 2500, XTL-2500, etc. So far all the Kenwood stuff is working as well as well as the Motorola stuff it replaced, maybe a bit better.


I think the only -real- issue we had was getting users accustomed to picking up a different looking radio. Since it was "new" it was automatically suspect. Anything that annoyed the user would be reported back to me. While I did need to make a few tweaks on settings, none of it was an issue with the radio itself, just the way they'd been set up by me. Rarely do I get any calls from the users now. They seem happy and pretty much leave me alone.

 

[ohiohonda]

Kenwood systems are very solid built. The above repeater in pictures is the lower end product but still a very solid one. They basically have two different tier levels repeaters within their systems. They do not offer a 100 watt all in one repeater like other manufactures offer. If you are wanting a 100 watt system they use Crescend Technologies Amplifiers to achieve the output power. The power supplies that they normally use for these systems are made by DuraComm. As far as duplexers that is normally decided at the shop level as far as I know. I am partial to Sinclair Q3220E for UHF applications.

 

[12dbsinad]

I see most of the new UHF repeaters go up to about 40w and all the existing repeaters are 100w. With an expected slight loss in range going to digital if it were me I would be looking for a 100w repeater not counting what the final digital mode will be.

I'm also used to dealing with beefy robust 100w repeaters like Master IIs, Quantars, etc, and in the $10k on up range new. Some of the repeaters shown look a little on the light duty side. Would you guys using this stuff put the repeaters shown so far in the same reliably league as the big old Motorola and GE dinosaurs?

Another thing I'm concerned about is the RF performance at very busy sites. For my personal equipment at these types of sites I'm used to installing big 8-cavity receive preselectors for master receive antennas, which go a long way toward protecting the repeater receivers from nearby TV transmitters, etc. The existing GE repeaters are using a simple 3-cavity duplexer and the MSF-5000s are using their internal duplexers with no external filtering to supplement the receiver and with their own company owned antenna. No filtered master receive systems used here and that says a lot about the performance of the existing repeaters. Will any of the top of the line Kenwood or MOTOTRBO repeaters survive on some of the busiest mountain tops without a lot of extra receive filtering?

In narrowing things down a bit I'll rule out Tait and Codan as I have yet to meet anyone around here with any experience with those brands. They may be popular outside the US but a brand the customer has never heard of or none of the local radio dealers have experience with would be a hard sell.

Handhelds and mobile radios would also be part of a new system so if a particular mode like NXDN has advantages and available repeaters are robust but the field radios are of mediocre quality, that also must be considered.

This particular customer has enjoyed a good 30+yr run with their existing repeaters and have probably changed out supporting radios a couple of times and the goal is to have similar reliability and life span.
prcguy

This is a common problem with today's repeaters, as far as robust performance like the old school units. I can tell you this, you will be hard pressed to find a business geared digital repeater with a front end as good and as selective as a Mastr II helical front end. Those things will run circles around any new synthesized 500 channel (like you need that) 2U pancake repeater at a high RF site. The only thing that you can do is add additional filtering in hopes it solves the problem.

I would suggest looking at a Harris Mastr III (which I believe are recently discontinued) or a Mastr V station. However, they only support P25 and analog. They are however the best I've dealt with in regards to today's new equipment. The problem is, anything really high end like you are looking for only supports P25. I suppose a Motorola MTR3000 might be worth a shot, they are decent rigs, but not sure it's a wise choice to head down the path of mother /\/\ with Trbo.

 

[prcguy]

More great info, thanks everyone for your input. Its sounding like Kenwood is really something to look into. Although the purchasing company is probably expecting Motorola to be high on the list, it seems nobody here is very excited about Motorola.

I also have some bad experiences with Motorola where they would repair some radios or a repeater then program it with newer software than I have, then you have to buy new software again just to diddle your own radio. I also imagine a headache requesting radios and repeaters with wide band from Motorola to be compatible with the current equipment until everything is replaced over many months before the switch to digital.
prcguy

 

[mmckenna]

I also imagine a headache requesting radios and repeaters with wide band from Motorola to be compatible with the current equipment until everything is replaced over many months before the switch to digital.
prcguy

Kenwood offers a "W license" that is tied to the programming software. Once you have the W license, you can program wide FM as much as you want with that software. Not unlike the wide entitlement keys for Motorola software.
I've got it for most of my software since we are on the coast and have some USCG interoperability channels programmed.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

They are business users in the UHF spectrum and exempt from narrow band. That's all I can say.
prcguy

That does not make a lot of sense. Are they licensed in Part 90? Part 22?

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[prcguy]

I don't have their license in front of me but saw it recently and its current and covers the old wide band and newer narrow band digital. They are currently exempt from narrow banding.

Once they decide on which digital route to take the new repeaters will have to operate in wide FM mode until the day comes when multiple repeater sites and lots of new radios switch to digital at the same time to avoid any down time. They will spend some time with new radios and repeaters in wide FM mode getting used to them before the switch.

Except for discussing the favored digital mode and best choice of hardware, I don't want to go into the particulars of their system.
prcguy

That does not make a lot of sense. Are they licensed in Part 90? Part 22?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I don't have their license in front of me but saw it recently and its current and covers the old wide band and newer narrow band digital. They are currently exempt from narrow banding.

Once they decide on which digital route to take the new repeaters will have to operate in wide FM mode until the day comes when multiple repeater sites and lots of new radios switch to digital at the same time to avoid any down time. They will spend some time with new radios and repeaters in wide FM mode getting used to them before the switch.
prcguy

I would look carefully at the license to ensure they are indeed exempt. If they are Part 90 they are not unless they are above 470 MHz in a "T" Band. The FCC exempted certain "T" (Television) band licensees because they would need to be relocated later after auctions of that spectrum. These minutia are very important when planning their technology choices.

The FCC database is easy enough to research their license.

 

[prcguy]

I know for a fact they are exempt and their license is in order. Not an issue and the details are not up for public discussion.
prcguy

I would look carefully at the license to ensure they are indeed exempt. If they are Part 90 they are not unless they are above 470 MHz in a "T" Band. The FCC exempted certain "T" (Television) band licensees because they would need to be relocated later after auctions of that spectrum. These minutia are very important when planning their technology choices.

The FCC database is easy enough to research their license.