Best Portable/Mobile ecosystem: NX-5000 line vs Motorola R7 + XPR5000e

[lucasec]

Hi all,

Posting in the Kenwood forum as I assume there's more Kenwood experts here that have also used the Motorola models I'm referencing than vice-versa . I've been interested in the state of the art on commercial gear, at the moment primarily for playing around with some analog/DMR UHF stuff on the amateur bands (as a bonus, also a nicer way to listen in on some GMRS frequencies). Over time, I would like to eventually pick up both a solid mobile and portable, ideally from the same ecosystem since I would need to purchase/learn the programming software (cost certainly is a factor, but I have no problem patiently watching the surplus market).

I've narrowed down to roughly two options. Curious people's thoughts on my pro/con list and if I'm missing anything obvious.

Kenwood option: NX-5300 (portable) and NX-5800 (mobile)

Pros:

• Future expandability. Could license/add P25 in the future if some P25 HAM repeaters pop up in my area.
• Nice-looking hardware, especially on the mobile side. The multi-deck feature especially seems unique and would tie back in to the "future expandability" point if I ever wanted to add in a VHF unit. If I add the handheld control head, it almost exactly matches the UX of the portables.
• Has a proper FPP add-on (but is this actually useful for the HAM band, e.g. can it program a wideband FM channel if the radio has the wideband entitlement?)
• Slighly more power output (the portable goes up to 5W vs. 4W on the R7, the mobile tops out around 45W vs 40)

Cons:

• The NX-5300 seems quite a bit chunkier compared to the Motorola R7.
• Less accessory ecosystem. In particular, Kenwood seems to have no first-party Bluetooth stuff (how do you trigger PTT with a third-party headset, etc.?)
• Programming software—I've seen plenty of complaints about the usability, also from what I understand it's not exactly cheap to buy from a dealer.

Motorola option: R7 (portable) and XPR-5550e (mobile)

Pros:

• I'm a huge fan of the R7 form factor and user interface. I don't really love carrying chunky radios around and the R7 caters exactly to this.
• More robust accessory ecosystem. Especially for the portable on the Bluetooth side, Motorola has key first-party pieces such as a wireless PTT button, etc.
• Motorola is slightly ahead on audio technologies, e.g. automatic volume adjustment, noise cancellation, etc.?
• Programming software is easier to use (and can now be freely downloaded from the Moto site with registration?)

Cons:

• This will only ever do Analog FM and DMR (no P25 experimentation in the future, unless I also wanted to buy one of their public safety models). And no multi-deck on mobile, so UHF is only ever going to do UHF.
• Limited/non-existent front panel programming option (I am aware of a third-party module for the older XPR portables, but I know it has lots of caveats)
• Probably will end up being more expensive all-in (even factoring in the cost of buying Kenwood software?)

Thanks again for any input. And of course for those of you who do this professionally, humoring the rest of us.

 

[mmckenna]

Some random thoughts, in no particular order. Disclaimer: I've got close to 600 Kenwood radios at work. I'm also -not- a Motorola fanboi. I use/own their stuff, but I'm not hung up on the brand name.

The Kenwood NX line benefit is that it comes with NXDN, you can add DMR and/or P25. You can only run 2 digital modes in the radio at the same time.

Multi-RF deck is a nice thing if you want to expand. Options for control heads, including a hand held control head if you want. The ability of the RF decks to work together to make cross band repeat is pretty nice. If you were really interested, there's been work done to get the NX-5600 low band deck into the 6 meter band, and my understanding is that NXDN on 6 meters is quite the thing. Finding someone else with that setup might be a challenge, though.

Kenwood audio quality is better than Motorola.

The software is a thing, but it's not insurmountable. These are complex radios and it requires a complex programming software. That being said, KPG-D1N is unnecessarily complex for the new user. Once you learn it, it's not any different than other programming softwares. Just make sure you figure in the cost, no free software, no bootlegging it either. They've got it pretty well locked down.

I've got some NX-5400's, NX-5900's and some NX-5700's in use at work. They've all been good radios and I haven't had any issues with them.

You need to fully, 100% understand the wide band stuff. The UHF radios will -not- do wide band out of the box. I don't use FPP, so I can't confirm the FPP/wide band limitation, although I've heard the same thing from others.

If you just need analog and DMR, the NX-3000 line is a less expensive solution. They'll do analog, DMR and NXDN, but only 1 digital mode at a time. No option for P25. I've got a lot of the NX-3400's, NX-3920's and NX-3300's at work and they've been solid radios. KPG-D3N isn't any more difficult to learn than D1N.

If you want to go cheap, the NX-1000 line will do analog and DMR nicely. I've got about 80 of the NX-1300DUK DMR models in use by one of my groups. The NXR-1800 repeaters are pretty nice if you ever decide to set up your own repeater. I'm only running them in analog mode, but they'll do DMR or NXDN. The IP linking that is built in to them is really nice. Web based management is sweet. Software is not difficult to learn.


Downside with Kenwood is that they don't do the "self supporting customer" thing very well. They have no customer portal where you can get firmware or software updates. You have to work through your dealer. Many of us self supported large customers have complained about this, Kenwood doesn't care. But if you have a good dealer, it's not that big a deal, just an annoyance.
As a ham, you may have a hard time getting support from a Kenwood dealer. Not all of them are 'ham' friendly and they absolutely will not do long term hand holding for small quantity purchases. Understanding the differences between LMR and amateur radio will be important. If this is your first foray into commercial LMR radios as a ham, you need to think through these limitations very carefully. I've been a ham for several decades and I no longer own any amateur radios. All of my radios are commercial gear and I don't miss the ham stuff. There are a lot of benefits to using commercial gear that more than makes up for the lack of VFO or 'ham friendly' features. But understand those differences….


Before you spend any money, at least take a look at the Kenwood/EFJ VP8000 and the soon to be released VM8000. Expensive, yes, but true multiband radios.

 

[lucasec]

Thanks for writing all of this. I hadn't thought about the lower models in the line, but could easily end up there once sticker shock fully sets in. Do you know the rough ballpark on the software (e.g. does it run a few hundred, four figures, more than the radio?). I know different industries are wildly different in how they value the software. Also, will a decent dealer will be able to sell me and add additional feature licenses post-initial purchase?

One other question—to what degree can you tune the per-channel power output on, say, an NX-5800? The application that comes to mind is if I wanted to program in a few of the GMRS channels, particularly the 462Mhz interstitial channels which are required to stay under 5W. Yeah, I know, none of these are Part 95 type-accepted, but I am more curious about the technical feasibility. From the spec sheet, an XPR5550 high-power model most definitely cannot, as it lists a power range of 25-40W. The Kenwood spec sheet lists a transmit power range of 1-45W, so I assume it's a little more flexible.

In general I assume these are the "differences between LMR and amateur radio" that you are referring to. The LMR gear is only really going to operate within its specified parameters and is not really going to "stretch" in the sense that a HAM unit with a VFO might. But if my application does fall within the range (power, frequency, mode, bandwidth) of the LMR unit, then I can really dial in the user experience and get a hell of a good radio.

 

[Josh]

I was a Motorola fan, and still own a couple DMR radios, but it's nowhere near as big a part of my day-to-day life as Kenwood (and TYT/Retevis for the low end DMR stuff).

From 2000 until 2009, you wouldn't see me with anything but Mother M's stuff, but when the railroads decided to use NXDN over P25 for a potential pathway to digital, I started to look at Icom and Kenwood- and Kenwood one by a huge margin. I may be able to speak a couple of things.

My Moto radios are only a single SL7550 and XPR5550, unlike mmkenna, I disagree on audio and think nothing tops how Motorola radios sound or how their radios can process transmitted audio to sound great- usually louder than other brands though. I had an SL300 on VHF and loved how analog sounded on such a puny radio, but these are just opinions.

Today I use NX5200 and NX5700 radios, the 5200 is closing in on ten years old and is often riding around in the door of my work truck, as rugged as one would want I'd argue, and ready to work in all weather. Batteries are equally as old. OEM, still holding good charge.

Onto the other stuff you'd asked.

Yes Moto went free, but when it was subscription based, a fellow ham and I "went in" together to buy the software, which was something like $500 then, but the value in it was getting updates for free throughout the subscription period.

The Kenwood software was reasonable enough for me to buy a license.. yes, it is pretty well locked-down... you get to use the license on one computer and have to deactivate that license and reactivate it on another to use it. If your computer fails and you were unable to deactivate the old license.... you get to buy a new one!

Provisioning of features in radios is relatively easy to do, and once activated is "owned" by the radio until it dies. No taking it back.

I'll have to check and see if narrow/wide is selectable in the FPP, but I think it is. I've made some good use of that feature in the field, it's handy unlike the Moto version.

You can set the power level of the NX-5800 to "low", "medium" or "hi".. since I have it's similar 5700... "low" is 5W, "med" is 25W and "hi" is full power.... or you can program this either per-channel, or as a menu option.

Depending on what your uses are and background, the "ham friendliness" of the radio itself is rigid by comparison. I mentioned Retevis/TYT at the beginning as using them with OpenGD77 really makes those otherwise rigid radios very user friendly and ham-like. For DMR I'd argue this is the best path to be able to listen to everything and talk out with ease.

With DMR, my ham-related difficulty has always laid with programming several channels with hard programmed talk groups, or run fewer channels with the call lists. Neither is choice, but thinking about how commercial radio operators set their customers up, it makes more sense to have limits.

Good luck, there are many good choices, but I can't speak on any of the Viking stuff.
-Josh

 

[mmckenna]

Thanks for writing all of this. I hadn't thought about the lower models in the line, but could easily end up there once sticker shock fully sets in. Do you know the rough ballpark on the software (e.g. does it run a few hundred, four figures, more than the radio?). I know different industries are wildly different in how they value the software. Also, will a decent dealer will be able to sell me and add additional feature licenses post-initial purchase?

List price on the software is $155, last time I purchased. You shouldn't pay list price.

One other question—to what degree can you tune the per-channel power output on, say, an NX-5800? The application that comes to mind is if I wanted to program in a few of the GMRS channels, particularly the 462Mhz interstitial channels which are required to stay under 5W. Yeah, I know, none of these are Part 95 type-accepted, but I am more curious about the technical feasibility. From the spec sheet, an XPR5550 high-power model most definitely cannot, as it lists a power range of 25-40W. The Kenwood spec sheet lists a transmit power range of 1-45W, so I assume it's a little more flexible.

As mentioned above, 5, 25 and 45 watts on the UHF radios.

If you have the right test gear, you can adjust those levels. However, "right test gear" is more than an SWR meter...

In general I assume these are the "differences between LMR and amateur radio" that you are referring to. The LMR gear is only really going to operate within its specified parameters and is not really going to "stretch" in the sense that a HAM unit with a VFO might. But if my application does fall within the range (power, frequency, mode, bandwidth) of the LMR unit, then I can really dial in the user experience and get a hell of a good radio.

Yeah. After being a ham for a few decades, I found that I hadn't really used VFO in a very long time. These modern radios have enough memory capacity that you can program in all the simplex frequencies and repeaters you'll likely ever need. User selectable PL is an option on these, so that's easily changeable on the fly.

Honestly, I switched to all commercial gear for two reasons:
1. I needed type accepted radios for use on my work systems. A lot of hams will hack radios and think it doesn't matter. Since I do this stuff for a living and have multiple FCC issued licenses that I'd like to not put in jeopardy, plus having integrity, professionalism, a career I enjoy, an employer that has trusted me with millions of dollars in equipment and staff, and understand why the rules exist, I like to not do stupid things.

2. I didn't need VFO and I found the feature set of the LMR radios much more appropriate for my use.

I programmed in all the repeaters in the area, plus all the ones along the common travel routes I use. I added all the simplex channels.
When it came down to it, I usually stick to one or two simplex channels, and I haven't been on an amateur repeater in probably a year or two.

 

[AF1UD]

I've been using the NX-5000 series almost as long as I've been involved in radio. Over the years, I've owned several of their handheld models and currently have four mobile units—two VHF and two UHF low-band. I originally chose them because, at the time, no ham radios offered DMR with a remote head (that’s changed with Anytone's remote/Bluetooth speaker mic), and I wanted solid audio playback capabilities. Since then, I’ve grown really fond of them.

The local fire departments in my area are transitioning to P25, and with just the cost of the key, I’ll be ready to go. The flexibility of these radios is outstanding. They’re the only radios I know of that support three digital modes, as well as Fleetsync and MDC, all in one package. The audio quality is top-notch, and their versatility and performance are miles ahead of the cheap, unreliable options you typically find in the ham/chinese market.

I sold my handhelds and upgraded to the VP8000, which is just amazing (though it runs different software). The mobile version is on its way, and I can’t wait to see how it performs. However, later regretting it and reacquiring a NX-5300 for FD beater use.

I’ve tried Harris radios (but their portables are underwhelming and pricey) and have looked into BK radios as well. Yet, every time, I find myself coming back to Kenwood. They really stand out for me for what they can do.

 

[tlemke940]

i want to add a few extra things to the list
Wide band this is what it says in the d1n help file about wide band (25kHz)
Ch Spacing (Analog) (Transceiver Settings > Zone/Channel > Zone/Channel Information > Conventional)

• In KPG-D1N, "25.0 (Wide) [kHz]" cannot be configured in Channel Spacing (Analog) if a receive frequency or a transmit frequency is configured in the following ranges:

Frequency Type	Frequency Range
VHF	above 149.98750 MHz and less than 174.01250 MHz
UHF	above 420.98750 MHz and less than 470.01250 MHz

However, if only a receive frequency is configured, "25.0 (Wide) [kHz]" can be configured in Channel Spacing (Analog) regardless of these frequency ranges.

and as far as the Kenwood Bluetooth it works with just about any Bluetooth accessory that supports ptt including Motorola devices and if the Bluetooth device dose not support ptt you can still use the mic and earpiece on the device and just key the radio manually i do this with my headset and my dad has this set up with his motorcycle helmet too so it is a wide world of accessory for any Bluetooth enabled radio.

and my last comment is on the audio,
as with most all radios audio problems result from the device no0t being set up correctly (not including HW Failure) i have heard just as may bug M's sounding like trash as i have any other radio out there and it is all in the setup if it is a new devise and dose not already have a profile it takes time to adjust for best audio the advantage with the big M is that they have a few more profiles for audio already set up.

 

[AM909]

If P25 is going to be in your future, you'll want to price the P25 conventional option. If you're going to want phase-1 or phase-2 trunking, those are options too, and you would need a physical (USB dongle) system key to program them (or, far more likely, have to get them programmed by the system owner). If you really must (please don't), older Motorola radios have a large hacker community that can do those things cheaper.

 

[KG4INW]

I don't have a Motorola R7, but I do have an XPR7550 and Kenwood NX-5000 portables (both 5200 and 5300), as well as an NX-5800. All of the good things stated about them, I totally agree with, plus Kenwood doesn't use that rubbery plastic that disintegrates after just a few years on their knobs!

I do have wideband enabled KPG-D1 which allows for analog 25 kHz on UHF but that's tied to the computer, not the radio as I'm unable to program anything wide while in FPP. VHF does work though, as long as the frequency is below 150.000 MHz.

I make great use of the ability to record audio straight to a MicroSD card, but I wish they had RX audio leveling like the Motorolas do.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Pros:

• Slighly more power output (the portable goes up to 5W vs. 4W on the R7, the mobile tops out around 45W vs 40)

That little of a power difference will make absolutely zero difference in talk out ability.

To see any difference in signal quality from a 4w radio, you would need to jump up to at least 16w, for a 40w radio you would need to go to 160w. The 1w and 5w difference makes zero difference.

 

[kayn1n32008]

The other useful feature of the NX series, is the ability to have multiple, unique radio ID's.

I own a XPR5550 and a XPR7550, and they are good for what they are. However, I specifically needed Cap+ trunking when I bought them.

If I had the funds today, I would be getting a VP8000 and a tri-deck 5700, 5800, 5900 with the advanced control head.

 

[tlemke940]

The other useful feature of the NX series, is the ability to have multiple, unique radio ID's.

I own a XPR5550 and a XPR7550, and they are good for what they are. However, I specifically needed Cap+ trunking when I bought them.

If I had the funds today, I would be getting a VP8000 and a tri-deck 5700, 5800, 5900 with the advanced control head.

i fully agree i run the full gambit on the Kenwood (NX-5K, NX-3k, NX-1K, and the VP) radios but my go to radio is my VP8000 and my multi deck mobiles

 

[lucasec]

Wide band this is what it says in the d1n help file about wide band (25kHz)
Ch Spacing (Analog) (Transceiver Settings > Zone/Channel > Zone/Channel Information > Conventional)

• In KPG-D1N, "25.0 (Wide) [kHz]" cannot be configured in Channel Spacing (Analog) if a receive frequency or a transmit frequency is configured in the following ranges:

Frequency Type	Frequency Range
VHF	above 149.98750 MHz and less than 174.01250 MHz
UHF	above 420.98750 MHz and less than 470.01250 MHz

However, if only a receive frequency is configured, "25.0 (Wide) [kHz]" can be configured in Channel Spacing (Analog) regardless of these frequency ranges.

This one might be an important distinction as being technically feasible to hit some wideband GMRS repeaters in the area would be nice. I've seen some conflicting information here though, e.g. this post seems to suggest the above might be the default limitations of the base software, with a license key/different software package (idk how difficult to acquire) unlocking the full range of the radio.

Either way, sounds like FPP is not going to let me add a new wideband channel. If it lets me edit the CTCSS/DCS codes on an existing analog channel, could still be somewhat useful (would editing the codes preserve the wide mode though?). Only other usecase is probably someone on a ham repeater suggests going to XYZ frequency for simplex and being able to follow in a pinch would be nice. Ease of use isn't essential—I don't want the VFO in my face all the time—so I suppose it's more about does it give me the flexibility I need for rare circumstances.

If I had the funds today, I would be getting a VP8000 and a tri-deck 5700, 5800, 5900 with the advanced control head.

Have you ever used the handheld control head (KCH-21R) with the multi-deck setup? This seems like almost the perfect setup for my crossover, where the traditional stack of radios on the dash would look quite out-of-place.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Have you ever used the handheld control head (KCH-21R) with the multi-deck setup? This seems like almost the perfect setup for my crossover, where the traditional stack of radios on the dash would look quite out-of-place.

I have not. I prefer remote heads to hand held control heads.

I definitely see the attraction of HHCH in modern vehicles though.

When you go to multiple decks, you MUST use a remote kit. The only thing up on the dash is the control head, the RF decks are usually stashed in an out of sight location, like behind seats or under them, or in the trunk. There are 2 cables that link the three rf decks, and a third cable goes to the control head. On the RF decks the control head is replaced with a 'blank' that has spots for the interconnecting cables.

 

[tlemke940]

Have you ever used the handheld control head (KCH-21R) with the multi-deck setup? This seems like almost the perfect setup for my crossover, where the traditional stack of radios on the dash would look quite out-of-place.

I have used the HHCH it is ok but if you have the chance go with a kch-20 control head as it has sdcard and bluetooth data (for programing) built in and you don't need to add it to the decks this way and has more keys to be able to program in a clean and user friendly way. when using the HHCH in multi deck view it is very tiny and hard to use. it is better to uses it in single deck view on a multi deck system as it give you more information. and not sure if it has really been talked about but the 5k mobiles are not multi band that are multi deck unlike a lot of other brands and radios that are multi band. multi deck allows you do do a config like 3 vhf radios or 3 uhf radios or a V-U-V setup and hear traffic from all 3 at the same time. a multi band radio you only hear traffic from one ch at a time so 5k is like having up to 3 independent radios on one control head.

 

[mmckenna]

The documentation I have on the VM-8000 shows that it can be installed in a group of VM-7000 decks. So multiple bands with a multiband mobile RF deck in the mix is an option, also.

 

[alcahuete]

I have never used a R7, but I have a bunch of 7550e and 5550e radios. My personal ones are used for Part 90 and ham. I also had a couple Kenwood 5300s and 5800s but ended up selling them. I liked them a lot, but I will never, ever, ever, ever (did I say ever?) use a radio for ham use without audio leveling. Without it, it is an extremely painful experience, with the mix of radios, CCRs, hotspots, etc., and just makes the entire experience unenjoyable.

But that's just me. Part 90 shouldn't really experience that issue, with similar radio types that are all adjusted properly, but on the ham side, good god...just painful.

I have played with but haven't owned a VP8000 yet. Really worked great and sounded great, but I'm actually looking at potentially getting a TP9900. It's smaller and also covers the 900 MHz ham band, where the VP8000 does not. I don't use VHF/UHF ham stuff a ton, but it's nice having all the bands available, plus monitoring VHF marine, GMRS, MURS, etc.

 

[tlemke940]

The documentation I have on the VM-8000 shows that it can be installed in a group of VM-7000 decks. So multiple bands with a multiband mobile RF deck in the mix is an option, also.

ya i forgot the VM8000 you can do multi deck multi band setup that would be just a sweet setup and if i remember correctly you can connect up to 4 of them at the same time talk about hearing everything at the same time lol

 

[mmckenna]

ya i forgot the VM8000 you can do multi deck multi band setup that would be just a sweet setup and if i remember correctly you can connect up to 4 of them at the same time talk about hearing everything at the same time lol

Ham radio operators wet dream.

 

[mmckenna]

but I'm actually looking at potentially getting a TP9900. It's smaller and also covers the 900 MHz ham band, where the VP8000 does not.

Our local Tait rep loaned me a TP-9800 for a while. Nice radio, nice form factor. Didn't really get much time to play with it. It's got some possibilities, that's for sure.