Callsign IDing on local 2m / 70cm repeaters

WPXS472

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I find this a very interesting topic. As it has been often said: Ask 2 hams a question, and you will get at least three opinions. So, I was thinking, is it legal, when using a repeater that requires a PL tone to access, ID with your PL turned off? I guess what I am really asking is do you have to identify yourself through the repeater, or just identify? Though not exactly the same thing, I know a lot of commercial repeaters turn off their transmit PL when IDing. Commercial users don't particularly like hearing a MCW ID all day. I know it would be inconvenient to actually try to turn off PL to identify, this is more of a hypothetical.
 

ecps92

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Similar to ... is it scanning if using SDR or a Commercial Radio ....
I have been a ham since 1981 and hams have always referred to Morse code as CW whether it was modulated on AM or FM or real CW with an on-off keyed carrier.
 

bill4long

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CW, or morse? There IS a difference. Remember, it is impossible to transmit CW on an FM repeater.
Doesn't matter:

97.119(2) By a phone emission in the English language.

Add if we add this to that...

97.3 (4) MCW. Tone-modulated international Morse code telegraphy emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H or R as the first
symbol; 2 as the second symbol; A or B as the third symbol.

(5) Phone. Speech and other sound emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; 1, 2 or 3 as the
second symbol; E as the third symbol. Also speech emissions having B as the first symbol; 7, 8 or 9 as the second symbol; E as the
third symbol. MCW for the purpose of performing the station identification procedure, or for providing telegraphy practice interspersed
with speech. Incidental tones for the purpose of selective calling or alerting or to control the level of a demodulated signal may also be
considered phone


... then using MCW on FM is perfectly legal. (The alphabet and numbers we use are considered part of the "English language.") Moreover, the repeaters themselves use MCW. And don't forget the purpose for identification in the first place:

97.119(a) ... for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions.

So, yes, you can legally use MCW to identify your station on FM or any other modulated mode. However, repeater operators may impose more strict rules on their repeaters and if they don't want you to do it, they have the right to say no, and ban you if you violate their rules. You should ask them first before using MCW. Personally I would find it annoying. The repeater MCW ID is bad enough. :D

97.205(e) ... Limiting the use of a repeater to only certain user stations is permissible.
 
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SPL15

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Certainly 100% legal to identify with CW on VHF / UHF FM repeaters; however, the issue it brings is courtesy to others / social norms depending on the situation. Legality does not equate morality, nor does it define what should be deemed socially appropriate... Good judgment & principle in social situations is not something that can be legally defined, nor cleared up by increasing granularity of how laws are to be enforced. Those who require this type of direct government babysitting & oversight should probably seek professional therapy from a clinical psychologist for an undiagnosed personality disorder... There is the issue of private property & rules imposed by the repeater owner: If they ask you to behave & communicate in certain ways, while not illegal for you to disobey in a legal manner by passive aggressively / incompetently using CW, they have EVERY right to ban you from using their private property, where if you continue on, then you're now operating illegally...

For an extreme case: On a 2m or 70cm net on a repeater, while legal, would it be appropriate to check in, answer the dumb question & make some long winded random comment about what you had for dinner last night, & close communication all in CW? No, & not one person would think so, and everyone would deem you a pretentious jerk for disrupting the net... However, it would be perfectly legal, until you're asked to no longer participate, where you will be illegally disrupting legal communications in a willful & intentional manner if you do continue on...

When casually talking with a group of friends on a linked repeater system "after hours" that spreads over a wide area, would you think it appropriate for a breaking station to jump in to key their call in CW, rather than quickly state "break" & wait to speak their call during a given pause in communication? It would be perfectly legal for them to do so, but I'd fathom you'd not want to respond to, nor want to converse with someone who's so obtuse & disrespectful in their communication "style" compared to the socially accepted norm.

When casually talking with a group of friends on a local repeater late at night, perfectly legal & possibly socially acceptable to simply hit the button to CW your call to remain compliant with the law depending on your area & the specific situation (so long as it's permitted by the private owner of the repeater system); however, you find this more on HF bands where CW is much more understood language by random folks who may be listening. It's really dependent upon the specific situation whether it's "OK" in a social aspect to CW your call to remain legally compliant. This really shouldn't have to be laid out in black & white... The thing is, Technicians are frequently not versed in CW, and many of the folks who may be listening won't be able to identify your CW call.. While legal to do do so, & possibly socially acceptable as well, CW calling during a voice FM conversation is kind of a pretentious act on VHF & UHF due to this being where Technician licensed operators primarily work.

If you're at a bar with a bunch of your friends, where you're all speaking English by voice & don't know Spanish, would you deem it appropriate if someone jumped into the conversation speaking Spanish, even though they spoke perfectly good English as their native language? No you wouldn't; however, they would be acting perfectly legal... Would you find this character a bit odd, off putting, & incredibly annoying if this random fellow introduced himself in Spanish that you don't understand, spoke perfect English throughout a brief conversation, then exited the conversation by speaking in Spanish that you don't understand? Perfectly legal if he did, but it's also really stupid that he did & incredibly annoying to anyone else who's listening & doesn't know Spanish... On VHF & UHF especially, CW isn't a common language for information exchange, where it's a bit prickish to speak in languages that your audience does not understand...

The legality aspect, simply requires you to identify your transmissions with your call sign in a manner that is identifiable in a prescribed time frame. The legality aspect does not, & should not define what is deemed socially acceptable between consenting parties, where it depends on the specific situation whether it is OK or not to CW your call to remain legally compliant in documenting / owning your transmissions. Requiring that government define what is deemed socially acceptable or not in various situations & circumstances, is a sign that you likely require professional cognitive therapy help that government simply cannot provide you...
 
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W8RMH

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What's the big deal, you're on there talking anyway just give your call sign and everyone on there will know who you are. Remember not everyone knows morse code. With morse going out over the air no one's going to know who's who. Your call will identify you with your voice.
 

Firekite

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What's the big deal
Right? I’m struggling to figure out what substantive advantage could possibly be gained by attempting to program a radio to spit out your callsign via Morse code every 10 minutes or whatever other hoops are being sought to jump through to achieve the end result. If you’re chewing the rag over an extended period, every once in a while just speak your callsign at the end or beginning of a transmission for ID. I’d have to scratch my head and wonder what kind of nut would program in something else for no apparent reason. Did he recently learn Morse code and is entranced by the novelty of it? Is he one of those grizzled old timers who hates the world and thinks if you want to know my callsign you’ll have to learn Morse code yourself to a sufficient level of proficiency that you can reliably catch my prerecorded 20wpm dits and dahs, and refuses to just speak his ID as part of his intro like everyone else? Does he even know Morse code, or does he just think he’s being cool as part of some new fad?

Whatever it is, there’s no answer that says he’s a cool and well-adjusted guy enjoying his hobby.
 

W8RMH

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Right? I’m struggling to figure out what substantive advantage could possibly be gained by attempting to program a radio to spit out your callsign via Morse code every 10 minutes or whatever other hoops are being sought to jump through to achieve the end result. If you’re chewing the rag over an extended period, every once in a while just speak your callsign at the end or beginning of a transmission for ID. I’d have to scratch my head and wonder what kind of nut would program in something else for no apparent reason. Did he recently learn Morse code and is entranced by the novelty of it? Is he one of those grizzled old timers who hates the world and thinks if you want to know my callsign you’ll have to learn Morse code yourself to a sufficient level of proficiency that you can reliably catch my prerecorded 20wpm dits and dahs, and refuses to just speak his ID as part of his intro like everyone else? Does he even know Morse code, or does he just think he’s being cool as part of some new fad?

Whatever it is, there’s no answer that says he’s a cool and well-adjusted guy enjoying his hobby.
Yep if he doesn't give it verbally I'm not going to know who I'm talking to. If you hear the code out there you're not going to know who it is coming from anyway.
 

Firekite

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Yep if he doesn't give it verbally I'm not going to know who I'm talking to. If you hear the code out there you're not going to know who it is coming from anyway.
Right, if we’re communicating via CW, fine, but if we’re chewing the rag, some random Morse code isn’t helpful and would most likely be written off by listeners as the repeater ID.

It might make for an interesting conversation, though. “Who, me? I won’t give my call. I only play a prerecorded bit of Morse code. That’s all I’m legally required to do. What? No, YOU’RE the weirdo!” :ROFLMAO:
 

W5GX

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Let me troll for just a minute. :p

You're not ID'ing for the repeater's sake. You're ID'ing for using the same frequency as the repeater's input frequency. The repeater ID's for using the repeater's output frequency. Do with that what you will.

*Runs*
 

dcr_inc

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Do like the majority does and get on DMR with the entire worldwide database then you will know who it is and where they are..
 

hitechRadio

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Typical HAM's here, arguing about CW (continuous wave) on FM that it can not be done!!! That was not the point of the OP's post and you know it, your just trolling. We all understand what CW means, when it it comes to FM repeaters!!! Even the manufactures of many repeater controllers have the programing parameter entry description as (CWID)...so just stop derailing the post with that BS.


AS far as CWID'ing on a repeater, yes no issues! (Unless repeater owner does not want it, thats a different story).

Should you CWID on a FM repeater????? NO you should not, you look like a lazy a$$ doing that. It literally takes a second to say you call sign. And yes some people (I dare say, the majority) on FM repeaters do not understand code. The guys that do use CW on FM repeaters..do you think your better than everyone else??,,I would think you did, and your just being a D-bag!!

Just my 2cents!!
 

W5GX

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That’s true. You’re doing it for the sake of everyone else you’re interacting with :)
Ha! True, it's a convenience to them. My post was more tongue-in-cheek - but I was inferring that you could legally ID on the repeater input frequency, with any DCS/CTCSS tone off and still be legal. The repeater (if it's setup that way) won't repeat it, but you'd be legal.

So, you made me *Run* back. :p
 

Firekite

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but you'd be legal.
I’m not a lawyer and don’t know the finer points of arguments that could be made splitting semantics hairs to get to the point where that’s legal. But I know two things:

1) Unless it becomes an issue and the repeater operator requests assistance, I can’t see the FCC caring enough to get into it.

2) That clearly violates in the most direct way the spirit of the law regarding communicating your callsign for those to whom you’re transmitting.
 

W5GX

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I’m not a lawyer and don’t know the finer points of arguments that could be made splitting semantics hairs to get to the point where that’s legal. But I know two things:

1) Unless it becomes an issue and the repeater operator requests assistance, I can’t see the FCC caring enough to get into it.

2) That clearly violates in the most direct way the spirit of the law regarding communicating your callsign[sic] for those to whom you’re transmitting.
I am not a lawyer either, just enjoy reading these regs for academic discussion (I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :p).

1. Of course.
2. Again, of course. As my previous posts stated, this was in jest.

I agree there are many instances where "legal" just isn't quite "right".
 

rapidcharger

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This actually is quite common although not on purpose. When people x-band repeat to a repeater and their radio is set up to ID with CW then the radio will ID every 10 minutes and ping pong the repeater's ID. It's far quicker to verbally ID than to do it in CW. It's not illegal but it is annoying. If you want to be annoying you can get a leafblower. Otherwise don't be weird.
 
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