Callsign IDing on local 2m / 70cm repeaters

[SignalEmitter5000]

I brought something up with my local repeater friends earlier today and I told them I’d come on here and get some answers.

The topic of the discussion was IDing on local repeaters and if IDing your callsign via CW was fine. Repeaters seem to have the choice of IDing either by CW or phonetically so the idea was brought up and we were wondering if IDing as an amateur operator was allowed via rules and regulations governed by the FCC. IDing at the beginning of the QSO, once every 10 minutes and the end of the QSO is required... my buddies and I were toying with the idea of playing our callsigns in CW over the air during the 10 minute requirement for ID purposes.

Some might argue that perhaps it’s best to get the approval from the Repeater Trustee/Owner before doing this on the airwaves... given that this action is allowed, in the first place.

So, what is everyone’s opinion, take, suggestion? I’m happy to hear all comments regarding this. Do you think this will turn ham radio upside down?

 

[AK9R]

When in doubt, refer to the rules, specifically §97.119:

(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the transmitting channel in one of the following ways:
(1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute;
(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;
(3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;
(4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission

Identifying your station using CW is always permitted on any band while using any mode.

 

[Chronic]

I don't think it is a requirement to ID at the beginning of a conversation , it may be a courtesy , but not a requirement. Every 10 minutes and at the end of your conversation is required .

 

[royldean]

Identifying your station using CW is always permitted on any band while using any mode.

But CW IS a mode. I've heard that it could be illegal l to transmit "modulated morse code*" on FM. Having said that, almost every FM repeater around here does it.

*I say "modulated morse code" because you can't really transmit CW on an FM repeater (how would you get the tone in there?). There was a discussion about this on the 'Z a while back and I don't know the answer either way.

 

[morfis]

But CW IS a mode. I've heard that it could be illegal l to transmit "modulated morse code*" on FM. Having said that, almost every FM repeater around here does it.

*I say "modulated morse code" because you can't really transmit CW on an FM repeater (how would you get the tone in there?). There was a discussion about this on the 'Z a while back and I don't know the answer either way.

Transmit as an audio tone the same as most repeater logic does for it's ID?

 

[royldean]

Transmit as an audio tone the same as most repeater logic does for it's ID?

Correct. I can't believe that that could be illegal (given the ubiquitousness of repeaters doing it). But I know it was discussed.

 

[ecps92]

I would contact the Owner/Club/Trustee to give them a heads up, before other users contact them to inquire who/what or think it is interference.

I brought something up with my local repeater friends earlier today and I told them I’d come on here and get some answers.

The topic of the discussion was IDing on local repeaters and if IDing your callsign via CW was fine. Repeaters seem to have the choice of IDing either by CW or phonetically so the idea was brought up and we were wondering if IDing as an amateur operator was allowed via rules and regulations governed by the FCC. IDing at the beginning of the QSO, once every 10 minutes and the end of the QSO is required... my buddies and I were toying with the idea of playing our callsigns in CW over the air during the 10 minute requirement for ID purposes.

Some might argue that perhaps it’s best to get the approval from the Repeater Trustee/Owner before doing this on the airwaves... given that this action is allowed, in the first place.

So, what is everyone’s opinion, take, suggestion? I’m happy to hear all comments regarding this. Do you think this will turn ham radio upside down?

 

[MTS2000des]

97.119 covers this:
§ 97.119 Station identification.

(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the transmitting channel in one of the following ways:

(1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute;

(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;

(3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;

(4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission standards, either color or monochrome, of § 73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission

As far as a repeater owner not approving it, that is their option to ban anyone from a repeater for any reason. Repeaters are not public property, and if an owner/trustee has a rule stating that one must ID in voice or not be authorized to use the repeater, that is their choice to require such. The FCC has previously sided with repeater owners who have banned users for violating their "house rules".

A local repeater here in Atlanta has their rules clearly stated. Some don't agree with them. They are free to operate elsewhere or put up their own repeater and run it how they desire.

 

[nd5y]

I've heard that it could be illegal l to transmit "modulated morse code*" on FM.

It's not illegal to do that in ham radio as long as it is in a band segment where FM phone is allowed.

 

[W5lz]

A CW ID is always permitted by Federal regs. Other means can be used depending on what the primary/dominant mode in use. ...nothing new here.

 

[AI7PM]

.......
A local repeater here in Atlanta has their rules clearly stated. Some don't agree with them. They are free to operate elsewhere or put up their own repeater and run it how they desire.

I know the guy who wrote this. It's a good doc to show those who love using repeaters, but think they area free public use device constructed for their personal entertainment.

 

[royldean]

A CW ID is always permitted by Federal regs. Other means can be used depending on what the primary/dominant mode in use. ...nothing new here.

CW, or morse? There IS a difference. Remember, it is impossible to transmit CW on an FM repeater.

 

[robertmac]

But can be very annoying.

 

[W5lz]

CW or Morse code? I think it's fairly self evident what was meant. It's also possible to send modulated CW on an FM repeater. Take another look at the restrictions for modulated CW.

 

[dcr_inc]

The short answer is YES..

 

[royldean]

CW or Morse code? I think it's fairly self evident what was meant. It's also possible to send modulated CW on an FM repeater. Take another look at the restrictions for modulated CW.

Ok, that's been established (modulated morse, NOT "CW"). It's confusing to hear people discuss morse code as "CW", as CW is a modulation method, not a "language" (code?). It's important for people to understand that "Morse" and "CW" are not the same thing.

 

[dcr_inc]

Today's Hams.. No code licenses.. CW to them is modulated.. And do you really think the FCC is going to waste vital resources to enforce a HAM radio repeater that is not ID'ing? Seriously Doubt it !!

 

[nd5y]

I have been a ham since 1981 and hams have always referred to Morse code as CW whether it was modulated on AM or FM or real CW with an on-off keyed carrier.

 

[SignalEmitter5000]

Thanks for the replies everyone. So, after asking the repeater trustee what he thought of IDing phonetically at the start and at the end of a QSO and IDing with Morse code/CW (whichever you prefer) every 10 minutes in a QSO, the repeater trustee advised that since Morse code is no longer a requirement for any of the licenses that it's probably best not to use it on that particular repeater. However, I will be conducting this style of IDing when I am on Simplex per § 97.119 - so that settles that. Simplex, in some cases, is a lot more fun than a repeater.

 

[danesgs]

CW is a mode on 2 meters and 440 and FM or SSB portions. Many AMSAT stations use some form of CW only and not voice or other digital modes. I for one would prefer not to program my call as a CW signal every ten minutes. IF you had 5 guys on a net and they are all sending CW every 10 minutes it could become an issue perhaps especially if its not being understood by the machine as separate signals. Some ID's being sent could be stepped on but I am no expert. Automated CW IDs for other digital modes are the only way to go like on PSK31 or JT8.