Caltrans District 5 frequencies outdated

[BriW]

Exsmokey - Thanks for the reply. And apologies for the typo.

 

[ScannerDude244]

Kirk the radio techs are back on the air today

 

[Kirk]

I didn't hear anything in SLO.

 

[ScannerDude244]

Sounded liked they came back to fix the voting receivers point to point between Calandra and Call Mountain. Not sure why they are doing this if no one is going to use this system.

 

[SCPD]

Sounded liked they came back to fix the voting receivers point to point between Calandra and Call Mountain. Not sure why they are doing this if no one is going to use this system.

I think they will eventually start using 800 MHz. They have probably slowed the pace of making conversions due to the state budget being what it is. It is just a guess, but I don't think any federal excise gas tax money pays for such things as radio systems for state DOT's. With the exception of the Big Sur to Hearst Castle coast the topography is not very mountainous. If 800 MHz works in District 9 where I live, which was the first district to convert to 800 MHz back in the early 80's, District 5 should not prove to be more challenging. In the eastern Sierra Caltrans only has three repeaters that aren't co-located with the CHP out of the eight sites they have, excluding eastern Kern County where I can't name the CHP sites off the top of my head.

One advantage of using 800 MHz repeaters is that they cover specific areas. In Bishop I hear them use two dispatchers during storms and each works specific areas by shutting off some repeaters on their consoles. They may have been able to do that with 47 MHz by routing the audio from remote bases using the microwave link system, but the areas of overlap between low band remote bases were significant. Between the shorter distances that 800 MHz covers and the use of CTCSS tones that differ for each repeater on the same frequency there really isn't any overlap. Another advantage is one quick push of a button on a mobile units can talk direct and the dispatcher does not hear any of it.

Then again, maybe districts without a snow removal workload don't have enough traffic to gain these advantages. 800 MHz seems to work nicely in the other Sierra Nevada districts, those being Districts 3, 6 and 10. I know in District 9 events such as a heavy snowstorm, roads being more slick than usual, heavy winds or poor visibility, with many including all of the above, the dispatchers for Caltrans and the CHP are challenged to keep track of all the incidents occurring. Multiple phone calls for one incident with most having vague location descriptions makes it pretty tough, especially during the beginning stages of a storm.

We will have to wait to see, unless someone finds a Caltrans or Dept. of Communications (old name, I don't recall the current one) employee that knows something about Caltrans communications district by district that can answer some questions.

 

[Kirk]

From what I understood, the 800MHz repeaters were installed as stand alone units, with no linking or voting. They probably couldn't get into all of them from the district office in SLO. Maybe the effort is now being made to "finish" the infrastructure, at which point they'll transition. Hard to know. I haven't seen any new licenses for CalTrans popping up in this area, so I'm curious how they're linking them. I don't know if there's State microwave at all of the sites.

 

[ScannerDude244]

From what I understood, the 800MHz repeaters were installed as stand alone units, with no linking or voting. They probably couldn't get into all of them from the district office in SLO. Maybe the effort is now being made to "finish" the infrastructure, at which point they'll transition. Hard to know. I haven't seen any new licenses for CalTrans popping up in this area, so I'm curious how they're linking them. I don't know if there's State microwave at all of the sites.

They are using 450mhz links. They also referred the voting receivers as rr1-4 all 4 of them were along the highway 198 between Calandra and Call Mountain. I was surprise how well 800mhz worked on highway 198 even better than Cal Fire on VHF, but then again they have the voting receivers for help.

I forgot to add if you look at napco log you see the state apply for alot of 450/460mhz around the state.

 

[Kirk]

Unfortunately SLO County is part of CPRA and not NAPCO. The division is at the SLO/Monterey County line. And CPRA doesn't let us unwashed masses see their goings on like NAPCO does.

I watch the FCC database, and haven't seen anything specifically for SLO County.

 

[SCPD]

From what I understood, the 800MHz repeaters were installed as stand alone units, with no linking or voting. They probably couldn't get into all of them from the district office in SLO. Maybe the effort is now being made to "finish" the infrastructure, at which point they'll transition. Hard to know. I haven't seen any new licenses for CalTrans popping up in this area, so I'm curious how they're linking them. I don't know if there's State microwave at all of the sites.

The repeaters in the districts with an 800 MHz system I've listened to are not voted. The old 47 MHz systems had voters, which selected the audio among a number of remote bases, similar to the CHP. They usually used one frequency for a district or large portion of a district so the mobile unit stayed on the same channel. This changed when the 800 MHz systems were installed. The person in a mobile unit switches channels depending on what area they are working in. I supervised the labor maintaining a Caltrans rest area from 2005-2007 and had a Caltrans handheld and looked at some of their mobile radios. Most of the channels are not labeled by mountain top, rather by the area they are to be used in. So you may not hear them say "lets switch to Calandra", they might say "switch to King City" instead. Maintenance stations only use one repeater, but that depends on terrain it covers, some use two to three. In District 9 repeaters not linked by microwave are linked with UHF frequencies. Dispatch does not have to do anything special to bring up these repeaters, they just select the repeater name on their console and the nearest microwave site automatically transmits the UHF to the repeater. The mobile operator switches channels to work that same repeater and it transmits back to the microwave site using the corresponding UHF frequency, which if I remember right is a 5 MHz offset in the range of UHF frequencies they use. The non microwaved linked repeater transmits to the microwave site on the upper or uplink frequency and the microwave site transmits to the repeater on the lower or downlink frequency of the two.

It is a little tough doing research on what the links are as so many state agencies are combined on the FCC licenses that the state holds. I have found that the address in Sacramento varies most of the time when you are viewing a license. A search where only the address is entered usually results in a hit that links to a state agency. In other cases it just comes back to the Dept. of Communications (or current name) in Sacramento. Licenses that have addresses where the agency can be identified can reveal what most of the frequency use for the agency is. Then it is a matter doing statewide searches for those frequencies until you find one at the location you are interested in. For the most part the state uses 800 MHz for the CMARS system, the State Parks system and Caltrans with a little use for the University of California system. There is little or no frequency overlap between the systems. I've found some oddball listings at times, but those usually have an address outside of Sacramento that is right at the point of use. Address searches usually identify the agency.

Over the years I've figured out which state sites in my location have microwave and those that don't in the two county region I live in. It used to be that only those sites with commercial power had microwave. The CHP had 70 MHz links to those and I'm not sure how Caltrans linked them at the time. Probably with a remote base at the nearest microwave site and without the use of UHF frequencies. The only one in my area that was located at a site without commercial power is shared with the CHP and it now has microwave powered with solar cells and batteries. I didn't think it possible, but a commercial radio tech who rubs shoulders with his state counterparts passed along to me that the state had done this. This is unique as another Caltrans site located about 15 miles away, not co-located with the CHP, employs a UHF link.

The CHP has more money and influence being able to get sites developed like this. When I worked for the Forest Service I was in on the ground floor of the CHP developing a previously minimally developed site on National Forest land for better coverage in a critical area. Caltrans seemed to come in on the CHP's coat tails to put one up there as well. Otherwise I don't think Caltrans would have a microwave link there now.

Caltrans and Mono County have a large blind spot on their systems in the upper portion of Lee Vining Canyon on the east side of Tioga Pass. The county has installed repeaters down near the junction of U.S. 395 and S.R. 120 at the mouth of the canyon in the last year. I don't know how much this will improve their communications. The problem is that the terrain above this canyon is rather extreme and most of it in designated wilderness. In addition Caltrans has another problem area resulting from the conversion to 800 MHz. This is a significant hole as employees are exposed to more risky conditions doing the avalanche work necessary to keep S.R. 158 open into the town. There is significant demand for information about the closures that avalanche work entails and they can't communicate about the closures in a timely manner in the June Lake area, which also has some cell phone coverage problems. Not every employee is issued a state cell phone further adding to the problem. They have some UHF frequencies licensed in the June Lake and Lee Vining Canyon areas presumably to develop repeater sites to address both coverage problem areas. They have held these licenses for about three to five years. I suspect they are going to install some 800 MHz repeaters at those locations, power them with solar and link them back to a nearby microwave linked site. I assume that the state budget has kept them from completing the work, but that it is still going to be done.

Keep all of this in mind should you try to figure out what is happening in District 5. Not a lot of people seem to be interested in listening to them. Even in L.A. no one has tried to figure out the talkgroups of District 7. They are still listed the same as they were fifteen or more years ago. I don't understand this as I always have the CHP and Caltrans, or the state highway patrols and DOT's of other states, in my scanners when I'm driving. Doing this has saved me a huge amount of time over the years when incidents develop on the road in front of me. I've often posted that DOT employees are much more chatty about incidents than law enforcement officers and the traffic jambs they can cause, so you end up knowing just how to detour around them. In California the mobile side of the communication can't be heard until you are right on an incident. If you can hear a Caltrans 800 MHz site you get both sides due to repeater use. I hope you or someone down that way has an interest in figuring it out when the system changes from low band. Due to some friends and family moving to Santa Barbara it looks like I will be traveling there more frequently and I would love to listen to them.

One more thing. The state microwave sites usually have CHP, Cal Fire or state Fish and Wildlife installations at them. If you figure those out then much of the Caltrans system can be figured out.

 

[ScannerDude244]

The repeaters in the districts with an 800 MHz system I've listened to are not voted. The old 47 MHz systems had voters, which selected the audio among a number of remote bases, similar to the CHP. They usually used one frequency for a district or large portion of a district so the mobile unit stayed on the same channel. This changed when the 800 MHz systems were installed. The person in a mobile unit switches channels depending on what area they are working in. I supervised the labor maintaining a Caltrans rest area from 2005-2007 and had a Caltrans handheld and looked at so-+-e of their mobile radios. Most of the channels are not labeled by mountain top, rather by the area they are to be used in. So you may not hear them say "lets switch to Calandra", they might say "switch to King City" instead. Maintenance stations only use one repeater, but that depends on terrain it covers, some use two to three. In District 9 repeaters not linked by microwave are linked with UHF frequencies. Dispatch does not have to do anything special to bring up these repeaters, they just select the repeater name on their console and the nearest microwave site automatically transmits the UHF to the repeater. The mobile operator switches channels to work that same repeater and it transmits back to the microwave site using the corresponding UHF frequency, which if I remember right is a 5 MHz offset in the range of UHF frequencies they use. The non microwaved linked repeater transmits to the microwave site on the upper or uplink frequency and the microwave site transmits to the repeater on the lower or downlink frequency of the two.

Back in April I saw that 2 UHF links popup on napco log one at the Pinnacles "Call Mt" and other at Palo Escrito "Arroyo Seco". The Call Mt link was active during the Radio test, but looks like the Palo Escrito link was denied.

 

[SCPD]

I follow the Napco log as well. I also go to each county in the RR database and click on the "last 100 FCC authorizations" page. It tells you exactly what was authorized following frequency coordination. There is a delay between the two, but it isn't a long, drawn out, period

 

[Kirk]

I will be monitoring and should be able to figure it out.

Let me know when you're in SB. I think there are ham repeaters on Santa Ynez Peak on which we might connect.

 

[BriW]

I supervised the labor maintaining a Caltrans rest area from 2005-2007 and had a Caltrans handheld and looked at some of their mobile radios. Most of the channels are not labeled by mountain top, rather by the area they are to be used in. So you may not hear them say "lets switch to Calandra", they might say "switch to King City" instead. Maintenance stations only use one repeater, but that depends on terrain it covers, some use two to three.

The mobile radios of District 4 conventional system are labeled by mountain top. In fact, they are nearly identical to how they are tagged in the RR database. They are just missing the numerical digits that precede the names. Like: "82 LOMA-A" and "84 LOMA-G" and "92 E COCOCO". The car-to-car channels are singularly positioned in between repeater channels on the interface and are labeled with the two surrounding repeater channel numbers that are before and after: "82-84".

I recently spoke with a maintenance area superintendent in District 5 (FYI: Superintendents are 3rd from the top in district maintenance. District Director > Maintenance Manager > Area Superintendent) If a radio change is happening in his area, he'd definitely know about it. So if one is happening, it is far off. And it may not even be for maintenance. It could be construction, which is engineering and surveying.

 

[BriW]

Oops. The car to car actually would read "82-DIR-84".

 

[SCPD]

I will be monitoring and should be able to figure it out.

Let me know when you're in SB. I think there are ham repeaters on Santa Ynez Peak on which we might connect.

Thanks for the invitation. I will get a hold of you if I head that way. I had wanted to take two trips down that way, one in mid February and one the first week of March. It didn't work out because my 60+ year body has required a lot of appointments and experimenting with a machine to address sleep apnea. One other procedure will keep me anchored in for the next 2 weeks or more.

A of lectures at UC Santa Barbara were where my nephew is a professor. The subject was fire ecology, which is the reason I chose a forestry career. I was too early to be able to apply for a forester job in the field, they didn't exist in the 70's, all of them were research scientists with PhD's. Now there are fuel foresters and technicians on nearly every ranger district. Oh well! I did get to see some "major ragers," such as being in Yellowstone IN 1988 as crew boss for 5 weeks. It was pretty wild!

 

[SCPD]

I just ran across some of my notes that had been misfiled. I remember getting a District 9 handheld for use at a rest area north of Mammoth. This was in the spring of 2007 during my stint there as a supervisor for the contractor maintaining the site. The handheld was programmed for every channel used, or proposed for use agency wide. I had a 1994 statewide 800 Mhz system construction plan that showed the location of the repeaters and the frequency and tone each did or was going to use. I cross referenced this information with licensing and found some differences. Based on this information I made a large, statewide submission to the database sometime post 2008.

When I went through the handheld I noted what the display said and keyed each channel to find out what frequencies and tones applied.

This was excellent information when I received it in 2007. Some districts had yet to convert to 800 MHz at the time. Some differences between the plan and the actual construction of the system are inevitable, especially when considering the intervening time period. I hope this explains why the database may not reflect what is being heard in District 5.

 

[ScannerDude244]

oops not the own by state

 

[ScannerDude244]

Update it seems like Cal trans district 5 are now using the 800mhz for flaggin/ road work on simplex, but still using lowband for dispatch. Also the Radio techs are back this time they brought back alot more Radio techs to fix the voting receivers on highway 198 again.

 

[BriW]

Update it seems like Cal trans district 5 are now using the 800mhz for flaggin/ road work on simplex, but still using lowband for dispatch. Also the Radio techs are back this time they brought back alot more Radio techs to fix the voting receivers on highway 198 again.

They've had 800 MHz handhelds for at least 15 years. But their use varies, because not all maintenance station crews have them. And they cause trouble for maintenance operations, because vehicles and other equipment don't have them but they need to talk with the flaggers.

 

[ScannerDude244]

Last night I ran into a video that shows Cal trans road side solar powered 800mhz repeater with a 450mhz link that I been hearing the radio techs been testing. It has great info that shows off the radio equipment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5echsStHqLQ&list=UUSSOElgoCSU9wNcN5VpgoEw