Can you GRAMA UCAN for TGIDs?

[pomopojo]

Has anyone tried serving UCAN with a Government Records Access and Management Act records request (GRAMA) (Utah Code Annotated §63-2-100) for a complete and authoritative list of TGID assignments?



The law gives the state all kinds of reasons to deny requests, but it puts the burden of proof on the agency to prove that releasing the information would violate GRAMA in some way. If it is not specifically protected from release by GRAMA, then it must be made public after a request.

Public safety is one justification the agency can cite to deny a request, but they would need to prove that releasing the TGIDs would harm public safety or cite specific portions of GRAMA that explicitly deny the release of the TGID assignments. An argument could be made that leaving the media and scanner enthusiasts to guess at which TGIDs are used by their local agencies may actually endanger public safety. If residents know sooner and better of a threat in their area, they are able to make better decisions on how to protect themselves.

Anyway, I could dig into the code, case law and Records Committee decisions and get a better answer myself, but thought maybe someone here has already gone down this road.

 

[Rolfman]

I thought about that but;

1. When you submit a GRAMA you can be charged a fee for the records. This can include all associated costs to compile, declassify etc... (Basically they can make it cost prohibitive if they want.)

2. I am not 100% but I think they are actually a Quasi-Government Agency. The GRAMA rules apply differently to them because they are a private business doing work for the government. So if they were subject to GRAMA you would actually have to find out whom they report to and try them I would think.

 

[qlajlu]

That is an interesting approach, pomopojo. Like Rolfman said, I'm not sure that this type of request would result in anything since UCAN is not a government agency (I don't think).

Just before we hosted the Winter Olympics and they were busy bringing the trunking system to fruition, UCAN TGs were posted on a Web site run by the Rocky Mountain Radio Association. That is where I found most of the TGs I still have programmed into my scanners. When RMRA took the listings down, as I recall, they left a statement that it had been done at the request of the government.* I'm sure that security concerns for such a diverse group of athletes from all over the world prompted that request.

Whether a petition requesting the release of this information (with today's post 9/11 atmosphere and the fact that most of the TGs are police and firefighters) would carry any water or not would probably have to be tried in order to get an answer.

*I thought it was strange for RMRA to take the TGs down because originally they had a Disclaimer posted on their Web site to the effect that most of the information could be gained from research of FCC records, other radio frequency list publications, etc. There was also a statement that all frequencies monitored - unless scrambled - were legal Public Domain. They seemed pretty adamant about posting that information and then one day it was gone.

 

[kf7yn]

UCAN itself did most of the complaining about posting talkgroups according to the now defunct RMRA President who now lives in Portland, OR.

UCAN was so paranoid about protecting their info they refused to give information to the US Department of Health and Human Services who asked them for information prior to the Olympics! The State of Utah refused to share info with the feds! The US DHHS was at the Olympics with a warehouse and several semi trucks full of bio gear in the event of a bio attack. They also brought their brand new $1 million command post bus which had just arrived from ground zero in NYC after 9/11.

I was contacted by one of their upper echelon who was in SLC, he explained that UCAN refused their request for info so we (RMRA) programmed their scanners for the games and in return were treated to a tour of the warehouse and command post and given some info on their comms at the games. UCAN continues to be one of the most, if not THE most paranoid public safety communications agencies in the US. The major reason is because they tell their customers their comms are secure from hacking and cannot be monitored.

Yep, UCAN lies their asses off as a matter of policy and they also put out a lot of disinformation early on and tried to discredit RMRA when they realized we figured out the system and most of the talkgroups. The USAF also complained about Hill AFB info being posted, so between the USAF and UCAN, RMRA decided to take everything to a private Yahoo group. There is a lot more info here now than on the Yahoo group, it's pretty much fizzled out.

Jon

 

[pomopojo]

Updates

UCAN is definitely public, Rolfman and qlajlu. Refer to their Web site, ucan800.org, click on "About us" and then research the "Legislative Reference 63C-7-101" that they have posted there without explanation nor link.

Utah Code Annotated 63C-7-102 says "The purpose of this chapter is to establish an independent *state agency* and a board and executive committee to administer the creation, *administration,* and *maintenance* of the Utah Communications Agency Network..."

Rolfman, they can make the fulfillment of a GRAMA request cost-prohibitive - agencies do all the time - but the request itself and demand for a price quote is free and required within 10 days of the request. If the price is too high, you can give up or go to the governor-appointed Records Committee who holds end-all authority over goverment records in Utah. They can demand records be released from all state and local agencies, as well as reduce/eliminate the price, if appropriate. Or you can file a lawsuit, where a judge can also demand the release of records or reduce/eliminate the price. The hearing before the committee is free. The hearing before a judge is not.

Kf7yn, that is very, very helpful and interesting information and explains a lot. That's precisely why a GRAMA might be appropriate. They don't have control over their records, the Records Committee does. If their paranoia is really egregious and palpable, the committee might see through it and force their hand. If you have solid information that other states release this info without quibble, please (!) let me know. That could be very persuasive in the event of Records Committee hearing.

Utah Code Annotated 63C-7-201.2 might explain their egomania. They don't have oversite: "The Utah Communications Agency Network is an independent state agency and not a division within any other department of the state."

Why not put it under the Dept. of Public Safety? Very strange.

(still doing more research - the idea of cracking a secretive agency through legal channels is intoxicating)

 

[pomopojo]

On second thought!

Anyone with any information on states/local agencies that hand out their TGID's without fuss would be very appreciated.

Could be any state, city, town, agency, anything. The more data the better. And, does anyone have a recommendation on a non-state-specific message board on radioreference where a request for this sort of info would be most appropriate? I'm new around here.


This rebanding stuff UCAN has been discussing at their meetings scares me.

 

[qlajlu]

Anyone with any information on states/local agencies that hand out their TGID's without fuss would be very appreciated.

Okay, while you were drafting the second half of your last post I was sending an e-mail to a couple of Database Admins asking them that very question.

This rebanding stuff UCAN has been discussing at their meetings scares me.

Yeah, it's going to be terribly inconvenient but there is no reason to be afraid of it. Whether we can get this information handed to us or not we will still be able to eventually keep up with our hobby. Part of the scanning hobby is detecting new TGs or frequencies and figuring out who they are. For me it will entail buying new equipment also because mine cannot be flashed.

Changing all of the current TGs during rebanding, although possible, probably won't happen considering all of the equipment involved. None of us really expect that to happen, but it is not carved in stone that it won't.

I would suggest that if it is possible for us to use a GRAMA, perhaps we should wait until after the inevitable rebanding. No sense in going through the process twice.

 

[Audiodave1]

Hey Guys,
They way's PD's feel about publication of their radio system's details varys widely. I talked to a couple of admins and they said public requests are generally seen as a PITA and there are ways around it. You just get sandbagged forever.

On the other hand I know of 2 quick examples of PD's in my area that feel more ears = more knowledge = Safer community.

The first is Eddystone PA. www.eddystoneboro.com/commu.htm
The first 5 channels are FD, the last 3 are PD.

Then there is Montgomery County http://www.montcopa.org/eoc/EDS/Default.htm Go down to scanner info for all you need.

Then there is Chester county PA. They do not list their system layout but are quite willing to distribute their system info with a simple request. Granted they are a EFJ MultinetII system that no single scanner can track....

I believe a group effort to ID the TG's that are not known is the best approach (and to be armed with Unitrunker when the new data channels go live) It is VERY likely that TG's will not change.

Dave

 

[Rolfman]

I need to retract my origional statement,

2. I am not 100% but I think they are actually a Quasi-Government Agency.

After reading their bylaws and the empowering legislation:

63C-7-102. Purpose.
The purpose of this chapter is to establish an independent state agency and a board and
executive committee to administer the creation, administration, and maintenance of the
Utah Communications Agency Network to provide public safety communications
services and facilities on a regional or statewide basis for the benefit and use of public
agencies and state and federal agencies.

The are a full fledged state agencey and could be GRAMA'd with possible results. I do agree with glajlu about doing it after rebanding just to make it worth while.