DSDPlus Cap+ issue with channel numbers identify

[Michael_77]

Hello guys, I've got the issue with Cap+ channel numbers setup.
I`m going step by step according to the setup instructions in the note.txt, but at the step f) I`ve blocked with the next situation:
I`ve found 4 sites and 5 channels at every one.
For example for Site1 I’ve got:
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.5880, 0.0, 0

At the step f) I`m trying to recognize correct channel numbers, setup FMP24 to control/rest channel monitor (–rc option) on frequency 450.0130. Also I run DSD+ in control/rest channel decoder(–rc option). And at the event log I find the next notes:
450.013000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)
….
450.013000 is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)

At the 450.438 I’ve got the same situation:
450.438000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)
450.438000 is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)

So, how I could identify the correct channel number if they are changed?
Probably I'm doing something wrong?
Will be glad to any help, thanks.

P.S.: How can I make sure that the order of the channels that I determined is correct?

 

[air-scan]

In Cap+ you want every other number in the channel column. I made the correction for you.

Cap+, 9999, 1, 1 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 5, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 7, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 9, 450.5880, 0.0, 0

DMR trunked systems have time slots. Each time slot is regarded as a channel thus the way it is numbered in the frequencies file. Each frequency has 2 time slots. On frequency 1; Time slot 1 is Channel 1. When time slot 2 comes active on the same frequency DSD+ FL will know it is channel 2 automatically. Then so forth. All we need is every other number. Plain and simple.

Another thing to keep in your mind is to make sure you are listing the frequencies as shown in that site's RRDB in the exact order because each frequency is a numbered repeater. Repeater 2 has channel 3 and 4. The frequency for repeater 2 should always be the second in this example.

If everything is in any random order in your cap+ frequencies then nothing will work right. EXACT order or nothing at all.

An example from one of the CAP+ systems in my city.

;Hobby Lobby CAP+
Cap+, 18695,1,1,463.7375,0.0,0
Cap+, 18695,1,3,463.8875,0.0,0
Cap+, 18695,1,5,464.0625,0.0,0
Cap+, 18695,1,7,464.2625,0.0,0
Cap+, 18695,1,9,464.4625,0.0,0
Cap+, 18695,1,11,464.6625,0.0,0
Cap+, 18695,1,13,464.8750,0.0,0
Cap+, 18695,1,15,463.4375,0.0,0

Hobby Lobby Distribution Center Site: Headquarters and Distribution Center

Hobby Lobby Distribution Center Site: Headquarters and Distribution Center Details

www.radioreference.com

 

[Michael_77]

In Cap+ you want every other number in the channel column. I made the correction for you.

Cap+, 9999, 1, 1 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 5, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 7, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 9, 450.5880, 0.0, 0

DMR trunked systems have time slots. Each time slot is regarded as a channel thus the way it is numbered in the frequencies file. Each frequency has 2 time slots. On frequency 1; Time slot 1 is Channel 1. When time slot 2 comes active on the same frequency DSD+ FL will know it is channel 2 automatically. Then so forth. All we need is every other number. Plain and simple.

Another thing to keep in your mind is to make sure you are listing the frequencies as shown in that site's RRDB in the exact order because each frequency is a numbered repeater. Repeater 2 has channel 3 and 4. The frequency for repeater 2 should always be the second in this example.

@air-scan Thanks for your fast response. I'm understanding basis of DMR theory, but my question was a little about another.
I found that at 450.0130 freq there are several pairs of channels are switched (Ch1/Ch2 and Ch7/Ch8). That is why I don`t understand which correct number I should write to its string:
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
or
Cap+, 9999, 1, 7 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0

If everything is in any random order in your cap+ frequencies then nothing will work right. EXACT order or nothing at all.

If there is a right channel order the "Lost rest channel" message will not appear. I'm understand correctly?

 

[slicerwizard]

At the step f) I`m trying to recognize correct channel numbers, setup FMP24 to control/rest channel monitor (–rc option) on frequency 450.0130. Also I run DSD+ in control/rest channel decoder(–rc option). And at the event log I find the next notes:
450.013000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)
….
450.013000 is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)

At the 450.438 I’ve got the same situation:
450.438000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)
450.438000 is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)

So, how I could identify the correct channel number if they are changed?
Probably I'm doing something wrong?
Will be glad to any help, thanks.

P.S.: How can I make sure that the order of the channels that I determined is correct?

Is it possible that you're picking up two separate sites? Could those frequencies be shared across multiple sites?

 

[air-scan]

@air-scan Thanks for your fast response. I'm understanding basis of DMR theory, but my question was a little about another.
I found that at 450.0130 freq there are several pairs of channels are switched (Ch1/Ch2 and Ch7/Ch8). That is why I don`t understand which correct number I should write to its string:
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
or
Cap+, 9999, 1, 7 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0


If there is a right channel order the "Lost rest channel" message will not appear. I'm understand correctly?

Sounds like you're using the frequencies listed in the notes.txt file. Don't do that. Pick a Cap+ site from your city or county from RRDB then work from that. It may so happen that your area has the same frequencies thus not exactly a match. Lost rest channel is due to weak signal strength or mis-matched cap+ in your DSDPlus.frequencies. In your case you have the latter.

Shoot for this

 

[Michael_77]

Is it possible that you're picking up two separate sites? Could those frequencies be shared across multiple sites?

I`m not sure but DSD+ see all that frequencies as Site=1 and see also Neighbors = 2 3 4 and looking at the TG numbers they are belong the same Cap+

Sounds like you're using the frequencies listed in the notes.txt file.

Are you kidding me? Of course not! All freqs are mine and I`ve caught them by SDR# + DSD+
As I wrote earlier I`ve got 5 freqs for Site 1:
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.5880, 0.0, 0
The fours of them are showed by DSD+ as:
450.0130 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2) + is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)
450.1500 is second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4)
450.2750 is third Cap+ repeater (Ch5 and Ch6)
450.4380 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2) + is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)
and they all have voice traffic.
But 450.5880 is the special one because it switched thru all channels and DSD+ say that 450.5880 is first, second, third, fourth, first... Cap+ repeater i.e. constantly changing over time. And there is no any voice traffic. That looks strange.

So how I could determine that I`ve got the right order in DSDPlus.frequencies?
I write them now as:
Cap+, 9999, 1,1 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 2, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 4, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
But I don`t know how to check the order.

 

[cg]

You don't indicate where you are. In the United States (where the vast majority of members are from) a couple of those frequencies are not valid so someone might think you got them from the Notes file.

you want them to be 1, 3, 5, 7 not 1, 2, 3, 4. Channel 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 5, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 4, 450.4380, 0.0, 0

You can test them by monitoring.
- How is it listening? do you follow a conversation?
- When you see traffic on one of the frequencies that shows several different possibilities, is the signal strength the same each time? Different strengths on different transmissions might indicate multiple sites.

chris

 

[TheButcher]

Mr. air-scan BW of 7.6khz is too low for DMR. Try at 12.5khz...

Use "-b-12.5" in your .bat file...

 

[Michael_77]

You don't indicate where you are. In the United States (where the vast majority of members are from) a couple of those frequencies are not valid so someone might think you got them from the Notes file.

No, I'm out of US and unfortunately there are no ready-made tables with frequencies.

you want them to be 1, 3, 5, 7 not 1, 2, 3, 4. Channel 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8

Yes, you are right it was my mistake when I wrote the text here.

- How is it listening? do you follow a conversation?

Sometime yes, sometime no. I think because I havn't setup all sites yet.

- When you see traffic on one of the frequencies that shows several different possibilities, is the signal strength the same each time?

No it's not. The signal strength is likely to be the same and site is not changed.

Mr. @air-scan BW of 7.6khz is too low for DMR. Try at 12.5khz...
Use "-b-12.5" in your .bat file...

Yes, I think that's a good idea because for two slots on one freq BW 12.5 kHz is needed as well.

How DSD+ is understanding when have to swich to another site from current? For example if I've got predefined freqs in DSDPlus.frequencies only for first to sites (site1, site 2) from the 4th total sites is the channel jumping will be work(particulary) or not?

 

[thewraith2008]

Mr. air-scan BW of 7.6khz is too low for DMR. Try at 12.5khz...

Use "-b-12.5" in your .bat file...

Your mixing up RF channel bandwidth 12.5KHz (or channel spacing) with the filter bandwidth 7.6KHz that DSD+ applies.
Clue is in the DMR Emissions Designator 7K60FXE

See here

Here is a video talking about it here (about the first 6 minutes)

 

[slicerwizard]

Mr. air-scan BW of 7.6khz is too low for DMR. Try at 12.5khz...

Use "-b-12.5" in your .bat file...

DMR carriers are not 12.5 kHz wide. Why feed DSD+ an extra 5 kHz of noise spectrum?

 

[Michael_77]

DMR carriers are not 12.5 kHz wide. Why feed DSD+ an extra 5 kHz of noise spectrum?

As FMP24 manual saids:
-b-<kHz> Set initial RF filter bandwidth and ignore hints from DSD+
So it's about RF signal BW. Here is 2 slots DMR signal from SDR# with 12.5kHz BW gates.

 

[Michael_77]

You can test them by monitoring.
- How is it listening? do you follow a conversation?

It seems that I've setup all sites to proper order.
Now I have 2 more questions:
1)As notes.txt says that after that I have to tune CC FMPA/FMP24 to the current rest channel.
What does it mean? For example for my site1:
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 5, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 7, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
Rest channel is jumping from 1 to 8 channel, which freq I need to point as a rest channel (any of 1-4)?

2) Following a conversation is working only within one site or CC DSD+ can jumping from site to site automatically too?
For real Cap+ system is it possible that abonents with the same TG presented and jumping from site to site or it's unreal case?
Thanks!

 

[slicerwizard]

So it's about RF signal BW. Here is 2 slots DMR signal from SDR# with 12.5kHz BW gates.

You're looking at parts of the signal that are 50 dB down from what you see at the signal center? That's what, more than 100 thousand times less power? Who seriously thinks that contributes anything to decoding? And that's assuming that that overdriven signal is producing an acccurate spectrum display. There's a reason DMR has a 7K60 emission code.

 

[mtindor]

I`m not sure but DSD+ see all that frequencies as Site=1 and see also Neighbors = 2 3 4 and looking at the TG numbers they are belong the same Cap+

Are you kidding me? Of course not! All freqs are mine and I`ve caught them by SDR# + DSD+
As I wrote earlier I`ve got 5 freqs for Site 1:
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 991, 450.5880, 0.0, 0
The fours of them are showed by DSD+ as:
450.0130 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2) + is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)
450.1500 is second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4)
450.2750 is third Cap+ repeater (Ch5 and Ch6)
450.4380 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2) + is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)
and they all have voice traffic.
But 450.5880 is the special one because it switched thru all channels and DSD+ say that 450.5880 is first, second, third, fourth, first... Cap+ repeater i.e. constantly changing over time. And there is no any voice traffic. That looks strange.

So how I could determine that I`ve got the right order in DSDPlus.frequencies?
I write them now as:
Cap+, 9999, 1,1 , 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 2, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 4, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
But I don`t know how to check the order.

Your DSDPlus can only show "450.4380 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2) +

As FMP24 manual saids:
-b-<kHz> Set initial RF filter bandwidth and ignore hints from DSD+
So it's about RF signal BW. Here is 2 slots DMR signal from SDR# with 12.5kHz BW gates.
View attachment 80809

Make note of the fact that if you want to contradict people, that's your choice. But don't surprised when you stop getting answers because you are questioning people who know more than you about it.

That signal is obviously extremely close to you. There is no reason for you to have the gain turned up so high to even monitor it. And if you turned the gain down so the signal was 30 db or so, it likely wouldn't "look" like a 12.5 khz signal. Also, since you appear to be using SDR#, you need to look at the bottom of the waterfall -- and it will make clear where the interesting part of the signal lies, with a lot of "fluff" outside of the meaty part. Use 12.5 for P25 simulcast / Phase II, 9.5 for P25 C4FM, 7 for DMR and NXDN96, and 4 for NXDN48. If you don't want to do that, then don't expect a lot of help from anyone.

In my screenshot is a 30-35 db P25 signal, one with a 12.5 filter width and one with a 9.5 filter width. I don't care that it "looks" like a 12.5 khz signal on top. Look at the actual portion of the signal on the bottom that contains meaningful information.


Mike

 

[air-scan]

Mr. air-scan BW of 7.6khz is too low for DMR. Try at 12.5khz...

Use "-b-12.5" in your .bat file...

I did not mention bandwidth at all. Please double check your posts. No need to mess with it because DSDPlus FL knows the correct bandwidth anyhow. Knowledgeable people work on the DSD+ FL team that have pre-configured it that way. I won't debate.

@Michael_77

Please read inigo88's post on Capacity Plus Understanding Capacity Plus trunking

 

[Michael_77]

Make note of the fact that if you want to contradict people, that's your choice. But don't surprised when you stop getting answers because you are questioning people who know more than you about it.

I apologize if I offended someone, I did not want to do this at all.

I just relied on the information from the standard, which says that the BW of the channel with two-slot TDMA is a 12.5 kHz.

https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/102300_102399/10236101/02.04.01_60/ts_10236101v020401p.pdf

That's why it sounds new for me. But I'm not pretend to anything. I'm just for the facts and reasonable arguments.
Your argument about the BW at the level of -30db makes a sense.
I think the forum was created to discuss such issues without fights and insults
In fact, we have left the original topic.

What's about the questions:

1)As notes.txt says that after that I have to tune CC FMPA/FMP24 to the current rest channel.
What does it mean? For example for my site1:
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 450.0130, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 450.1500, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 5, 450.2750, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 7, 450.4380, 0.0, 0
Rest channel is jumping from 1 to 8 channel, which freq I need to point as a rest channel (any of 1-4)?

2) Following a conversation is working only within one site or CC DSD+ can jumping from site to site automatically too?
For real Cap+ system is it possible that abonents with the same TG presented and jumping from site to site or it's unreal case?
Thanks!

 

[Michael_77]

Please read inigo88's post on Capacity Plus Understanding Capacity Plus trunking

Yes, sure. Thanks a lot!