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Capacity Plus capability question

batdude

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this is for people who know a lot more about MotoTrbo Capacity+ trunking than I do (and trust me, I don't know much)
This post revolves around 2 different SpaceX CAP+ "systems" at Cape Canaveral. Their UHF and 900Mhz systems:

Space X 900Mhz CAP+: https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=9558
Space X UHF CAP+: https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=10888

Yes, systems is in quotes... here's why.
Myself a couple of other locals have been playing hell trying to figure out "Site 6" on the 900Mhz trunk. 2 of the 4 frequencies assigned by the FCC to Site 6 are actually used at Site 4 (937.1625 and 938.1375). The other two freqs (936.15 and 936.4125) have never been monitored.

So today, I spent some time trying to get DSD+ set up to trunk-track this UHF Space X DMR system. Turns out the RR db was missing a freq and the LCN order wasn't quite right. That has been corrected.

Now here is the interesting part. above I stated that the 900MHz "Site 6" has never been monitored. I think the reason why - is kinda simple - i think the UHF site 6 is part of the larger "Space X 900mhz CAP+ System".... the UHF Site 6 reports site neighbors of 1, 2, 3, and 4. And conversely, (for example) Site 1 of the 900 system reports neighbors of 2, 3, 4, and 6. .... (((there is no "site 5" that we have ever found/monitored))) - so from the Neighbor List perspective, our theory works.....

Where I need an expert here is .... I've never seen a cross-band DMR system before. Is my above theory even plausible or supported by the DMR CAP+ protocol?

>> to have a system site on a different RF band completely << ?

So I need some help figuring this out... once I understand if my theory is possible it leads me to some other questions...especially since there are no dual-band MotoTrbo radios that I know of....

how would a UHF radio on the system communicate with a 900 radio on the system? (would the system simul-key a UHF and 900 repeater?) - this would apply backwards as well - can a 900 radio talk to a uhf radio?

if the above is not possible, what is the advantage of the apparent incorporation of the UHF site into the 900 mhz system?


TIA

doug
 

mtindor

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I'm no expert. But let's assume that what you believe to be the case is the case.

1. There could be dual band 450/900 radios out there (no idea if there is or not)

If there isn't, then clearly the UHF and 900 Mhz will not be able to roam to each other. But that's not a dealbreaker

2. Absolutely -- sites in the same system could be spread across whatever bands they want.

Remember, they are connected over IP.

3. If only one facility had 450 Mhz and all the rest of the sites had 900 mhz, everything is still okay

Meaning that they can still communicate over whatever talkgroups they want. If SpaceX UHF is active with a user on TG 10 for instance, and there are one or more 900 Mhz sites with users who are currently on TG 10, then when SpaceX UHF talks on TG 10, the traffic is going to simultaneously be sent over whatever the UHF site to whatever radios are on TG 10. If no radios on the UHF site are on TG 10, then no traffic from 900 Mhz users on TG 10 will be heard on the UHF site.

It's really no different than a system whereby all of the sites are on one band, with the exception that the UHF guys can't roam to the 900 mhz site and the 900 mhz site users cannot roam to UHF sites. That is, unless there are dual-band 450/900 radios out there or the SpaceX UHF people also have 900 mHz radios and vice versa.

Sans roaming, the benefit of them being on the same system is that they can still communicate between facilities on varoius talkgroups.

To use the PASTARNET statewide system in PA as an example, even though it's a P25 system, they have sites on VHF, UHF, 700 and 800 -- all part of the same WACN/SysID.

Mike
 

Mr_Boh

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There aren't any dual-banders that I am aware of, unless you look at something like a Kenwood multi-deck solution for mobile.

For all intents and purposes, some TGs can be linked between the two, but you can also have some that only work on U or 9, but you have to make sure any linking of the two has matching TG IDs.

It's difficult to compare this to a P25 system. There isn't really a master system controller, just some brains on the repeaters. It's more comparable to something like LTR where a lot of the logic and capability comes from the concept of the pre-planned LCNs and rest channel identifiers and there is much less infrastructure - the repeaters just sort of need to be aware of what the others are doing.

They are likely using Cap+ Multi-Site, which in MSI marketing speak is different from a general Cap+ system. A lot of the same stuff just expanded capacity and capability (and stepping stone to Cap Max aka Teir III - which does have system controller).

But if you are looking at this wondering you could merge into one DB entry - just confirm that a unique TG ID has the same conversations on both frequency layers.

Here's a good playlist explaining them:
 

EricCottrell

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Hello,

Talkgroups in a Linked Capacity Plus system can be set to appear on multiple sites. If you can monitor both the UHF and 900 sites, you will likely find the same traffic on talkgroups 101 and 102. A radio using the talkgroup does not have to affiliate to a site for that talkgroup to appear.

It sounds like the frequencies shown as site 6 on the 900 system were not confirmed, but rather deduced given there is a site 6 and two unassigned frequencies. There could be a site 5 as a low power filler site. I have seen systems have such sites that do not show up on neighbor lists.

I suspect the UHF site is an interop site that allows other UHF users to communicate with SpaceX.

73 Eric
 
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Here's another clue to the riddle...Space X's facility outside of Waco is UHF LCP.

Sometimes, it's just about being able to pass traffic between different regional locations where different bands may be in use. With LCP you can signify which talkgroups are wide area (multiple sites) and which ones are local only. When a TG is keyed up at one site, it either just affects the local site or multiple. Co-locating multiple sites (on different band) allows more flexibility in BYOD (if someone comes in from another location and brings their radio they are ready to go regardless of the band (assuming it is already programmed for all sites in the system).

The best akin that I can come up to is the GATRRS system in Texas (which is one of the largest "multi-band" P25 systems in the US). The core sites of the Austin Metro area are all 800 MHz (some select 700 MHz stuff such as the DPS micro site at the state capitol and Bastrop's 3 site simulcast system). Then you have the rural sites like "Western Counties" (Llano, Burnet Blanco, Gillespie and Lampasas), Middle Rio Grande valley, and Permian Basin which are primarily VHF. There are some "co-located" sites (one being Singleton Bend) where the same tower houses a 800 MHz site for City of Austin and a VHF site for Western Counties (with a site number for each). It's not that every user of the system has multi-band radios but since the system is interconnected on multiple bands a TxDOT truck can be dispatched from TxDOT headquarters in Austin and be out Big Spring or 800 MHz agencies can notify neighbors on VHF without having to have the message relayed through dispatch regarding a pursuit before handing it off.
 

mtindor

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A radio using the talkgroup does not have to affiliate to a site for that talkgroup to appear.
Interesting. So you are telling me (as an example) that if somebody keys up on TG 100 on one of the UHF sites, the traffic is going to be broadcast over the 900 mhz site even if there are no radios affiliated with that TG on the 900 Mhz site? In what circumstance would that make any sense? that would be a complete waste of resources on the UHF site. If modern day trunked systems worked that way, all of the sites would be overloaded carrying traffic for which no radio is even listening.

Maybe radios don't affiliate on Cap+ the same as they do on CON+ or P25 or other studly trunked types, but certainly traffic is not going to be heard on a given site on a specific talkgroup if there is no intended audience present. that would totally waste talkpaths.
 

KK6ZTE

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Capacity Plus doesn't affiliate. It doesn't care if there's a radio on that site or not. If the Master repeater is programmed for "All Wide Area Talkgroups" then all talkgroups go out all sites. If that isn't programmed, then the admin has a list of talkgroups and a checkbox to allow that talkgroup to a site.

Capacity Plus is the low cost trunking option, it doesn't have the brains associated with Connect Plus or Capacity Max (or P25). Cross band is a bonus feature of Cap+, but it was never intended to be a major feature.

In order for affiliation and tracking radios and sites, you need a smart controller (either built into the repeater like small Kairos deployments)--something to handle the tracking and logging. Cap+ is a light duty system that works really well for what it is.
 

batdude

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thank you to everyone for the insight and info! It is very much appreciated.

I managed to get DSD+ running today, one Airspy on the UHF side and one on the 900 side.

TG104 seems to be simulkey'd between the UHF and 900 system. I have some work to do on my DSD+ setup of the 900 freqs... I keep loosing the rest channel, so that tells me something isn't quite right with the data i've entered for each site. of note - neither the 900 nor the uhf SpaceX system give the "4xxx.x0000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)" type messages....

1601388472517.png
 
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One of the reasons we call Capacity Plus and LTR pseudo-trunking...there isn't any zone or full time control. In the case of Capacity Plus, the rest channel beacons and tells the SUs that the next call will take place on this slot. When a radio requests to make a call, the rest channel move to the next logical slot.

For the most part, trunking systems don't care about what band they are even operating in. In terms of DMR, the logic controlling the site only needs to know what repeater IP correlates to what slot number. Specifically, Cap+ can actually be configured on two different banded repeaters (not that a subscriber would be able to follow) because all the logic cares about is saying, "Slot X is the rest channel" and the repeater with Slot X replies, "Oh, Slot X is mine, beaconing!" In a Connect Plus or Capacity Max systems, the site controller essentially says, "TG A go to Repeater B, Slot X" The site controller doesn't have to know the frequency of the repeaters...just what repeaters are available or in-use which is why the radios have a map "key" of what frequencies correlate to each Repeater ID for each Site ID.

P25 is a bit different as it does work with frequencies (well, kind of). Instead the site controller has a list of what repeaters are at the site and what frequency they are operating on in terms of the channel ID and channel number and simply tells subscribers, TG D go to 01-0294 where the first number indicates Channel ID in the band plan and the second number indicates the channel number (which is calculated from the channel step multiplied by channel number and then added to the base frequency). Basically, as long as the radio knows the system ID and band plan, it doesn't need to know anything about the site...it can find it out via a feature called Spectrum Wide Scan or via OTA adjacent site info. Now you do occasionally see what is called a dual band site in P25 (which is a mix of 700 MHz and 800 MHz at the same site) but that is simply becasue most newer 800 MHz P25 radios are also 700 MHz capable (and you'll typically always see the control channel in 700 MHz to keep 800 MHz only radios from trying to roam to that site as we'd hate to grant access to a resource a radio isn't capable of).
 

mtindor

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Typically, I think the LCN determination is made specifically at such time that a voice call is occurring AND you are tuned to the frequency where the voice call is occurring. So instead of parking on whatever the last rest channel was, park on a specific frequency and wait for a Cap+ voice call to occur. Once it does, you should then see it determine the LCN.
 

slicerwizard

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Yes, you can figure out a Cap+ channel's LCN/LSNs when one of its timeslots is carrying the rest channel and that rest channel announces a channel grant for a talkgroup ("TG x is on LSN y") and that talkgroup appears on the other timeslot. So even without DSD+ telling you the RF channel/LSN relationship, you can just watch the decoded messages on the two timeslots and figure it out...
 

TampaTyron

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I have worked on a similar system........ operations would use the 900 side because they are in and around buildings (that may have BDAs), near space vehicles (many space craft have very dramatic limitations of nearby RF signals due to receiver sensitivity) etc. Then, security would use the 400MHz side because they were outdoors mostly static and rover positions. Now, this could be because they used to be 2 different groups and are now merged OR they are using the actual frequency propagation/band for performance OR they could not get more 900 freqs, so they expanded the system to UHF. If I remember correctly, the UHF licensing of frequencies on this system coincides with Space X taking over their own security from a contractor. Last I heard, Radio One currently maintains the network and is known to be very creative is presenting solutions to customer's problems. TT
 

com501

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Keep in mind that Tesla sites are 900 Cap+. I am sure there is AT LEAST ONE person who only wants to carry ONE 7550e between those two entities. Perhaps more than one person...
 
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