CCRs used for mischief?

[randycsz]

Hi all,

I've been a scanner enthusiast for over 35 years, from the Bearcat III to the SDS-100. I've never gotten into amateur radio or anything that need a transceiver. I figured I could always pick up GMR or FMR radio if I needed to do so.

I'm seeing a lot of the CCRs radios all over the place. Being a former cop (a very long time ago), I'm curious what's preventing someone from taking one of these and broadcasting on a VHF emergency frequency like, for example, 154.755?

I know very little about these radios.

 

[chrismol1]

As I understand new baofengs out of the box for the U.S. are restricted to transmit on amateur radio frequencies. Before that there was indeed instances of illegal use

 

[MTS2000des]

I'm seeing a lot of the CCRs radios all over the place. Being a former cop (a very long time ago), I'm curious what's preventing someone from taking one of these and broadcasting on a VHF emergency frequency like, for example, 154.755?

I know very little about these radios.

Nothing. The cat was let out of the bag about 10 years ago when the FCC, ICE and every other agency dropped the ball and started allowing these fetid turds that some call a radio into the US en masse. The Summer of Love taught Chicago, NYC and other cities still on conventional analog that the availability of these devices pose a real threat to the RF spectrum. (Of course, Chicago PD is migrating to secure, fully encrypted system and NYC is doing the same now). Meantime, millions of these things are in the hands of unknowing consumers who don't know:

1- Most are not FCC certified for any consumer (license by rule) use on any frequency
2- Most consumers don't care about rules. They just want cheap "walkie-talkies" and hop on Chinazon and go wild.
3- The "prepper" community think they are the savior to all things "zombie apocalypse" and will magically enable seamless comms over hundreds of miles. License? We don't need no stinkin license! It's the end of the world as we know it, and we feel FINE!
4- The "cheap ham" community. Hung up on low rent, bottom of the barrel radio, these subpar performing radios seem to be like fast food for many new hams young and even older farts who could care less that these radios sound like crap on the air (low, muffled audio is a signature quality), have the worst front end of any radio (most have no filtering so even interference from an LED light drives them crazy), abysmal user interfaces with quirky issues like slow scan rates, difficult to enter frequencies/tones- but hey, you can buy three of these road apples for the price of one entry level Icom!

Those who want to infiltrate conventional analog systems have a cheap, low cost entry path to doing so. It takes very little to gleam the required information to pirate on such systems. Sure, it's "always been that way", but the cost of entry for quality commercial gear, acquiring software and cables, as well as a skill set to do so kept them out of most dirty hands. Not the case today thanks to the Internet, Chirp, and $30 turd radios!

 

[nd5y]

As I understand new baofengs out of the box for the U.S. are restricted to transmit on amateur radio frequencies.

That's only the ones intended for the US market that got Part 15 certification. There are other Baofeng/Pofung and other manufacturers' models still available with no certification (or Part 90) that will transmit anywhere and some with Part 95 certification that are restricted to FRS/GMRS or MURS frequencies.

 

[mmckenna]

I'm seeing a lot of the CCRs radios all over the place. Being a former cop (a very long time ago), I'm curious what's preventing someone from taking one of these and broadcasting on a VHF emergency frequency like, for example, 154.755?

It absolutely happens.

A few years back we had a rather large wildland fire. Fire agencies had issues with rando-citizens with CCR's getting frequency/tone information off webpages like this one.
Said citizens had no clue that they were not supposed to be doing that, and would happily key up on the county and state fire repeaters to ask questions, offer advice, or do other stupid things where they didn't belong.

Because of that, our county is now going to a P25 trunked system and considering encryption for fire talkgroups, all because a bunch of people with $14 radios that felt the overwhelming need to be stupid.


And it is not just the random people with CCR's. Ham radio operators have developed a sense of entitlement to public safety radio frequencies. Periodically they get a smack down from the FCC when caught:

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-22-43A1.pdf

The FCC felt so strongly about this that the Chairwoman, herself, wrote this statement since some hams are unable to comprehend the FCC rules. She put it in easy to understand language in a pretty good effort to make it 100% clear that it is absolutely not allowed:

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-22-43A2.pdf

 

[MTS2000des]

The FCC felt so strongly about this that the Chairwoman, herself, wrote this statement since some hams are unable to comprehend the FCC rules. She put it in easy to understand language in a pretty good effort to make it 100% clear that it is absolutely not allowed:

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-22-43A2.pdf

I'd venture to say hams gone bad are a small (and manageable) part of the piracy problem. Whether it's whacker lids with CCRs or unauthorized trunking radios, they have the ability to take away privileges.

The average CCR consumer user doesn't know (or care) about rules. Look at these very forums for the entitled "I just want walkie-talkies and don't tell me I gotta follow rules and use certified equipment, get licensed/coordinated etc." crowd who don't like being told NO and rules are there.

The FCC, FTC, and every other three/four letter agency who's job and purpose it is to keep harmful garbage out of the USA failed miserably. Too late now, these turds are swirling in the punch bowl.

 

[popnokick]

Mischief? Indeed. To the tune of $34K for pressing the PTT on a frequency the user had no license or authorization to use -
FCC Proposes Record $34,000 Fine for Alleged Interference and Unauthorized Transmissions During Idaho Wildfire

 

[kny2xb]

I must be an oddball or a weirdo

My CCR's are collecting dust

I have 2 Icom Part 95 compliant h-t's

I have several higher quality [Icom & Alinco] Part 90 h-t's that have NOAA receive, GMRS & MURS programmed in [I know I'm going to get yelled at for those]

And I have NO interest in straying into LEO, FF, US, etc frequencies

Not to derail the topic, but:
In all seriousness, the yahoo [I'm being nice] in Idaho deserves/deserved the $34K fine

Peoples lives & property are at stake whenever & wherever there's a fire
Whether it's a car fire, a house fire, or a forest fire

The firefighters are professionals, & they need all their resources to accomplish their mission
Which is to SAVE lives & property

Butt out & let them do their jobs

Whether you're a ham or not, DON'T try to ''help"

Stick your nose in, & it may get burned, smacked, or chopped off

Or all of the above

73

 

[GlobalNorth]

Many social protests and organized violence were and are coordinated using these type of radios. They can respond to police action in real time.

Many 'journalists' wrongly attribute this to amateur radio.

 

[GlobalNorth]

The off road SxS types gravitate towards these types of radios and use them without licenses, approvals, or regard for others.

 

[kny2xb]

The off road SxS types gravitate towards these types of radios and use them without licenses, approvals, or regard for others.

Not always, not all of them

I was active on GMRS for awhile

Several 4 x 4 enthusiasts I spoke with have their GMRS licences, use GMRS rigs & their call signs, & are responsible operators
Some are licensed ham operators also

Not everyone is a "bad" operator

 

[MTS2000des]

Many social protests and organized violence were and are coordinated using these type of radios. They can respond to police action in real time.

Those same terrorists also used these CCRs to jam and make false calls on legacy analog systems in those big cities during their "demonstrations". I am sure our enemies love knowing they are supplying these items seeing them used in this fashion.

 

[mmckenna]

I'd venture to say hams gone bad are a small (and manageable) part of the piracy problem.

To me, I see very little difference between a ham playing on public safety frequencies, and an uneducated consumer playing on public safety frequencies.

Ultimately, the ham should know better, if they took the time to crack open the rulebook. Both are operating radios where they do not belong.

Manageable, yes, as long as the FCC keeps up with fines running in the tens of thousands of dollars. I only wish they'd do it a lot more often.

 

[rescuecomm]

You guys are correct about one thing. With new public safety systems going 700mhz and 800mhz P25 and NXDN with most channels encrypted, the supply of FM repeaters for 2M, 440m and GMRS will dry up. So will the used eweb PS radio market. Maybe a surge, then the problem should solve itself.

 

[MTS2000des]

To me, I see very little difference between a ham playing on public safety frequencies, and an uneducated consumer playing on public safety frequencies.

Ultimately, the ham should know better, if they took the time to crack open the rulebook. Both are operating radios where they do not belong.

Manageable, yes, as long as the FCC keeps up with fines running in the tens of thousands of dollars. I only wish they'd do it a lot more often.

I'm with you, except as you said, the ham should know better, like the Colorado ARES whacker who thought it was kosher to program up bootleg trunking subscribers. He made a video presentation even acknowledging that cloned IDs are a BAD BAD thing, yet he did it anyway. We're talking about someone who has had a ham ticket for 4 decades.

The FCC isn't really interested in going after consumers. The average consumer can cry ignorance, and with no real license to take away, from an ALJ standpoint, all they could do is turn it over to HOMELAND or DOJ and go that route. As a senior FCC official active in enforcement (now a regional director of enforcement) told me at an RFIM class at IWCE, the Commission only has so much budget, manpower and chooses enforcement bureau action selectively. When they do, it's hell fire for the one on the receiving end.

The FCC and other agencies are to blame for letting these turdpiles into the hands of consumers. Every one of these should be confiscated at the border by ICE and destroyed, the same way they do with fake iPhones and iPhone parts. Except no one is lobbying for that, so the supply is endless.

 

[rescuecomm]

It's what the old timers said would happen when Dick Bash started printing questions and the code test went away. I didn't buy in, but apparently they were correct.

 

[redbeard]

It's what the old timers said would happen when Dick Bash started printing questions and the code test went away. I didn't buy in, but apparently they were correct.

Yeah I don't think making the ham tests easier is the cause of hams pirating trunked radio systems and interfering with public safety systems. Sure a ham should know better but I don't see a path of causation.

 

[rescuecomm]

Perhaps, they can't pass the test and then don't buy the radio? Here, you might get a couple of days with a pirate affiliated trunked radio while the state administrator checks with the county area it came on in. They don't know about it, then it gets bricked. The last guy transmitting profanity on a amateur net was DF-ed and found to be a regular guy. He got the radio off the web and programmed it with online info.

The removal of the Morse requirement and listing the question pool along with volunteer examiners letting people do repeat testing is the difference between now and pre-2000.

 

[MTS2000des]

The removal of the Morse requirement and listing the question pool along with volunteer examiners letting people do repeat testing is the difference between now and pre-2000.

Or VE's who just commit fraud and pass folks they know. No...that never happens. Never. NOT.

 

[alcahuete]

The FCC has been neutered long ago. They neither have the manpower nor teeth to actually go after problem children and actually punish them for being stupid. $34,000 in fines? Might as well make it $1 million. They never get paid anyway, or if they do, they are negotiated down to a miniscule amount.

Make it a minimum 25 years in prison if you're caught transmitting (interfering) on a public service frequency. Done. You don't have to catch many...just enough to make an example out of them. A licensed amateur radio operator who should have known better? 30 years.

We come across people like this every so often in my line of work, and thankfully, we have other laws and means of going after these people. We rarely waste time with the FCC. They eventually get turned over to the FCC also, but that's after the real enforcement has already taken place.