Charles County Emergency Operations

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Detjohnc

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Per a press release from the Information Office of the Charles County Sheriff's Office, all radio transmissions after midnight, Friday, October 7, 2005,will fully convert to the new digital 800 MHg radio system. Up until this time, the Sheriff's Office has been operating using a dual mode system, using both their 800 MHg band and their former VHF-Hi band. The release advised further that once the "patch" is removed, transmissions via the new system will provide even better coverage, and even less interference. Sheriff Fred Davis went on to say that "there is a definite benefit to having citizens hear our radio transmissions because those who monitor their scanners sometimes provide us with information based on the transmission they are listening to. He said that those scanner enthusiasts still interested in monitoring, should contact an electronics store for a scanner that can scan an "800MHg digital trunked radio system."

DetJohnC
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ka3jjz

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How about fire ops? I know they have a VHF hi band dispatch and a few firegrounds. Have the firegrounds been dropped as well? 73s Mike
 

Detjohnc

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As far as I am aware, Fire Ops are still "patched." As for how long this will continue, I do not know. I do know that when they switched from VHF lo to VHF hi sometime ago, the "patch" remained in tact for a good while. I am still monitoring Fire Ops on my Pro94, but I am still stuck with having to decide between Radio Shack's Pro96, or the Uniden BC396T. I know, I know, there is another forum for that, but I need to decide quickly, as this being my first day without the capability to monitor the Charles County Sheriff's Office, it was WAY TOO quiet around here!

DetJohnC
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hardhittinz

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what are the new radio freqs for the cc police?I hit the search button on my scanner on the 800mhz freqs but got nothing..
 

hardhittinz

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well i am lost with this if anyone can program this scanner for me il gladly pay you for it.. Cause im getting really fustrated i have never messed with this trunking stuff .Is there an easier scanner out there ?
 
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ka3jjz

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You need a DIGITAL trunktracker to hear the Charles system. The 2052 won't cut it. And sadly, no, they're a bit more complex to program. From all that I've heard - my county isn't digital yet - you're better off programming via software than doing it by hand.

Examples of radios that fit this class include the PRO96, 2096, Uniden BC296, 796 and 396. While the now-discontinued BC250 and 785 will do this **with** the optional digital card, those 2 models won't be supported if Charles decides to go with the rebanding issue.

73s Mike
 

RALPHLUCAS

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WOW, PEOPLE ARE WAKING UP!

HERE IS A COPY OF MY EMAIL TO A WRITER OF AN ARTICLE THAT APPEARED IN LAST FRIDAYS MD. INDEPENDENT.

Greetings Jay!

After reading your story regarding CCSO terminating it's simulcasting on VHF and finally implementing full 800Mhz operations, I had to chuckle at Sheriff Davis comment regarding the:
"benefit to having citizens hear our radio transmissions because those who monitor their scanners sometimes provide us with information based on the transmissions they are listening to. We encourage this kind of information sharing and we hope it will continue."

His statement is correct, however, one of the Primary purposes for the Motorola Type II SmartZone APCO-25 system is the encryption capability. Law enforcement has always gritted it's teeth knowing that the public can legally intercept it's transmissions per Federal law. You will hear that the digital system is clearer, more reliable, able to penetrate within buildings, no more dead spots, can interface with Homeland Security Agencies and other Agencies, which in MOST cases is accurate. However, the real prize will be the eventual all encrypted communication. In your article you indicate with the new system police will be able to scramble (encrypt) their channels during certain events to prevent the public, as well as suspects, from "eavesdropping on their conversations". (NOTE: There is no such thing as eavesdropping for "in the clear" transmissions!) These events are drug enforcement, warrants and other "black box" undercover operations which have some merit. These events are currently communicated via cell phones that most officers carry, especially Victor units. CCSO will eventually go encrypted for all talkgroups in Zone 1 which includes D1, D2, D3E, D3W, STAC1,2,3,4, & SOTS1,2, plus COEMR1,2,3.

It is ironic that a vast majority of citizens whose tax dollars paid for the 800 system will not be able to afford the "compatible" APCO-25 receivers that are required to comply with the Sheriff's request for continued information sharing! Most APCO-25 Digital receivers cost between $400 to $600 for the LEAST expensive models. I noticed that fact was absent in your article. Moreover, the cost for Motorola's system was originally to have cost Charles County tax payers about $15 million dollars or so. I understand that it exceeded that amount by another $10 million. Even with Federal dollars from Homeland Security that's quite a bite for Charles County taxpayers! I don't think one cent of that money was given to the Citizen Public who will now have silence on CCSO frequencies in order to replace their radios! Many citizens used their radio for their own safety. When officers were searching for a criminal on foot, the pubic was aware of the description and the location and could take appropriate action. If there was a 10-37 suspect on foot or driving on the road and the citizen called in a sighting, the citizen could monitor the progress of the officer(s) in the apprehension. No longer. They must first purchase at least one or more APCO-25 Digital radios for their home or car to continue to be on high alert for suspicious activity. This is exactly what Officials knew would happen. There were too many citizens monitoring communications. Once 800 became fully implemented, the problem would be solved. The few citizens that would purchase an expensive radio would be tolerated until such time as full encryption took place. A more reasonable approach would be to have continued the simulcasting of CCSO channels 1,2 & 3. Such a process was done for many years and only recently suspended for fire tone alert frequency 46.42. So far, all 800MHz fire channels are, as of today, still being simulcast on 158.775, 155.085 & 158.865...why?

It is interesting to note the Maryland State Police still use the HF band in the range of 39 Mhz! They do have a capability on 155.73 Mhz and will have the capability to interface with other agencies on 800Mhz, but they have not chosen to equip all their units with the 800 system yet. Why? A simple review of the problems with 800Mhz technology experienced by other states will answer that question regardless of the hysterical objections to the contrary, especially those of the contractor. One also might want to look at the sale of the frequency spectrum from a well known cell service provider as another reason for the proliferation of 800 Public Service Radio systems! But that is another issue.

Jay, you have a very nice article there in the Maryland Independent. I think that there are going to be a lot of perplexed citizens when they find "dead air" on the CCSO channels. The same citizens may be rather infuriated when they find what it cost to replace their radios!
 

ka3jjz

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39 Mhz is HF??? I don't think so....otherwise, an interesting email. And you're right, wait until folks price out these digital trunktrackers. The local EMS groups are going to be busy with cases of sticker shock, hihi. There's also quite likely to be a great deal of confusion as to which models are the 'digital capable' ones, and which aren't. There's been a bunch of sales of 97s, 2055s and 2051s, and now folks are going to find out that, insofar as monitoring Charles sheriff is concerned, they're now worthless....
I too wonder why fire didn't move when the Sheriff did - it makes no real sense, unless the County didn't have the funds to equip them with mobiles and portables? Very interesting....73s Mike
 

RALPHLUCAS

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Yep, ur right, I'm 9MHz ( for us old guys 9Mc) off freq! Chances are Jay won't care, and if he finds out, then I know he's been studying! By the way, CCFB has equipped ALL it's units with 800 gear(vehicles and portable) and is currently fully operational. I speculate that CCFB wants citizens to monitor fire communications whereas CCSD does not!
 
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lawman349

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RALPHLUCAS-

I think you are stuck in "police conspiracy mode."

Take it from someone on the inside...THERE ARE NO PLANS TO ENCRYPT ANY OF THE CCSO TALKGROUPS OTHER THAN THE ONES WHICH ALREADY EXIST. These secure talkgroups exist ONLY in zones provided solely to Vice-Narcotics, Criminal Investigations personnel, and command staff.

With that being said, I think it is important for you to understand the 800 upgrade was not done with the citizen in mind. That is to say there was no intent to deprive a citizen of their listening capability. The goal was to improve communication and interoperability. For the first time in my almost 6 years working for Charles county I can identify FEW dead spots on portable. There are NONE on mobile. By contrast, the VHF radios did not work in almost ALL the buildings in the District 2 area ... or the mall...or most of our county government buildings...you get the picture... From an officer safety standpoint, this new system is a lifesaver.

Furthermore, we now have the capability to talk DIRECTLY to St. Mary's (on 8CALL), Calvert (on their system or ours), and Prince WIlliam (for incidents on the Potomac). And patching us to PG or King George is MUCH easier.

It is evident you are not a user of this system. If you were, you'd see how drastically superior it is to the old VHF.

By the way, MSP is on VHF Lo Band, NOT HF. Please ask ANY Trooper if they prefer that glorified CB radio to our 800 Mhz system, and I think their answer will explain everything clearly to you.
 

RALPHLUCAS

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Now lawman 349, no need to get your colon all tied in a knot with your comments of below:

I think you are stuck in "police conspiracy mode."Take it from someone on the inside...THERE ARE NO PLANS TO ENCRYPT ANY OF THE CCSO TALKGROUPS OTHER THAN THE ONES WHICH ALREADY With that being said, I think it is important for you to understand the 800 upgrade was not done with the citizen in mind.

Police conspiracy mode? now that's one for the law books! Does the Sheriff think that the citizens are in police conspiracy mode when he wants to "encourage this kind of information sharing and we hope it will continue?" I agree that the 800 upgrade was not done with the citizen(s) in mind. Very little is done by the County Government these days with the citizen in mind, but for how much money can be can be picked from his pocket! I am glad for you that the new system works for you. Back in the old days we had one transmitter for the whole county. Now you young'ens have transmitters (repeaters) sticking up all over the county like porcupine quills! If we had that many on 45.64 back in the 60's, I bet we could copy better too (except for the hetrodyne from all those transmitters!). Why, they even got the Navy to allow a site on restricted area property. Guess nobody told them about the regulation regarding HERO devices and RF around explosives! Yeah, the ignitors in those rocket motors, squibs in those warheads, and brigewires in the fuzes, blasting caps and other ordinance have firing leads that are about one wavelength at 856Mhz! And don't think their so-called filters work at those freqs cuz they are mainly designed for shipboard radar! In otherwords the 800 system on base is a hazard to the employees,and the county won't be telling OSHA!

You may not know of any plans for full encryption, even those "on the inside" (what ever the inside is) can't resist going full scramble. As you know, all it takes is one command from the from the controller and it ALL goes encrypted. And just to be sure it stays encrypted, the digital KEY can be changed at will, every day if desired. Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes, officers don't want the public to hear their NON-emergency, NON-offical communications. As you know, some of that "chatter" was on chan 6 or chan 5 of the old system. Some times chatter was on the cell phone and refered to as "the other channel". I remember in the old days a State unit H-9, who I had just heard telling Waldorf he was "taking assignment". He passed me at a "high rate". When I called Waldorf complaining that the officer was exceeding the speed limit the dispatcher indicated that the unit was on assignment. I remarked that I knew that "taking assignment" meant that he was on his way to LUNCH! Therefore, there is a intense motivation to eventually go encrypted under the pretence of secure communications for various seemingly bona fide reasons. In any event, those citizens that secure digital units will eventually have to contend with reprograming them as a result of the soon coming rebanding fiasco.

73's & 88's
 

lawman349

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RALPHLUCAS-

If the Sheriff had intended the public to be left out in the cold on this, he would NOT have given advice on how to obtain a scanner to continue to listen. I agree the scanners are costly, but that's the price we ALL pay for technology. I dont think it's practical or prudent to stick with an antiquated, obsolete system and jeopardize the safety of our first responders because some folks balk at the pricetag on a new scanner.

As for your "one command" theory for full encryption, I have one word - Malarky.

There is NO way they can simply decide to one day fully encrypt all CCSO talkgroups. Wanna know why? Because MOST of the agency carries XTS 2500 portables, which, by the way, are NOT encryption capable. The county would have to outfit about 200 officers with XTS 3500 or XTS 5000 portables and encryption capable mobiles at a significant pricetag in order to "scramble" all communications. This is unlikely since we JUST got this equipment issued!

As for communications we don't want the public to hear, nothing beats NEXTEL.

Buy the digital scanner, man. Your blood pressure will go down - I promise.
 

RALPHLUCAS

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In reply to your post below:

If the Sheriff had intended the public to be left out in the cold on this, he would NOT have given advice on how to obtain a scanner to continue to listen. I agree the scanners are costly, but that's the price we ALL pay for technology. I dont think it's practical or prudent to stick with an antiquated, obsolete system and jeopardize the safety of our first responders because some folks balk at the pricetag on a new scanner.

As for your "one command" theory for full encryption, I have one word - Malarky.

There is NO way they can simply decide to one day fully encrypt all CCSO talkgroups. Wanna know why? Because MOST of the agency carries XTS 2500 portables, which, by the way, are NOT encryption capable. The county would have to outfit about 200 officers with XTS 3500 or XTS 5000 portables and encryption capable mobiles at a significant pricetag in order to "scramble" all communications. This is unlikely since we JUST got this equipment issued!

As for communications we don't want the public to hear, nothing beats NEXTEL.

Buy the digital scanner, man. Your blood pressure will go down - I promise.


I have a UNIDEN scanner. My blood pressure is down due to my meds and not the radio DR. 349. An unlike most people on RR, I don't hide behind some A.K.A. identifier. That leaves me open to retaliation/retribution through the CAD system and NCIC. I have not been disrespectful to anyone through any of my post, least of all Sheriff Davis. Regarding the Sherriff's statement, it remains ironic he would elicit the public's continued assistance by suggesting what most of the public with monitors know. They bought radios from somewhere initially. They have sense enough to search those sources again. Sheriff Davis' suggestion as to where the pubic can purchase monitors is an insult to their intelligence. Furthermore, to sieze upon his statement as showing his willingness for the public to continue information sharing is in conflict with the suspension of simulcasting for those who cannot afford $500 to do so. Moreover, I don't think the County should retain antiquated equipment either. However, I do know that 800 is not as SAFE as most think. Look at New Orleans and elsewhere for an examples of disruption. As a famous TV series actor quoted, "The more plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

Best to you and yours,
Ralph
 
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lawman349

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Ralph-

No one accused you of being disrespectful. I simply disagree with you in your accusation that the 800 upgrade was motivated by the desire to have secure communication.

With regards to simulcasting on VHF, I simply dont believe it is fiscally responsible to maintain TWO radio systems. Do you realize the cost involved? It WAS you who brought up the issue of tax dollars and fiscal responsibility, wasn't it?

Oh well, perhaps one of our friends online or fellow Hams will enable a live online feed. Unitl then, I suppose we'll either be going digital or going silent.

73s
 

RALPHLUCAS

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IN REPLY TO LAWMAN 394 POSTING WHICH SAYS:

Ralph-
No one accused you of being disrespectful. I simply disagree with you in your accusation that the 800 upgrade was motivated by the desire to have secure communication.

With regards to simulcasting on VHF, I simply dont believe it is fiscally responsible to maintain TWO radio systems. Do you realize the cost involved? It WAS you who brought up the issue of tax dollars and fiscal responsibility, wasn't it?

Oh well, perhaps one of our friends online or fellow Hams will enable a live online feed. Unitl then, I suppose we'll either be going digital or going silent.

73s

That's fine to disagree 349, and I apologize if I got the impression of disrespect unjustly. Yes, I did and continue to question the issue of tax dollars spent on the project. Twenty five million dollars spent without ANY input by Jane and Joe taxpayer indeed calls to into question "responsibility", specifically the lack thereof.

How much DID it cost to simulcast CCSO on the previous freqs? How much DOES it cost to simulcast CC Fire and EMS? If the cost is prohibitive, then we can expect the "patch" to be pulled on Fire and EMS shortly as well!

Perhaps we can still simulcast under KDV793/WNCV949 since dispatchers still insist on station ident using KDV793 long after, I understand, that licence expired. Of course, they say it so fast that any FCC monitoring station would have to slow down a tape by 400% to catch the call sign! Perhaps we could ask the Fire and EMS under 949 to simulcast CCSO under 793 since they still station ident. Yeah, I'm kidding and know it is FCC and technically impossible. I mention it only to indicate that VHF transmitters did exist, tuneable cavities did exist and an antenna did exist that are not cost prohibitive. I'm not talking about transmitters (repeaters) peppering the county like we do for 800 now. I'm suggesting a single antenna mounted on the tower like the old days on Radio Station Rd. At least some of the citizens with 15 year old radios might stick up a monopole on the roof and get some signal.

I like your suggestion that perhaps one of our friends on line or fellow Hams will enable an online feed. That might help some of the citizens that have computers in lieu of expensive radios.

--... ...--
 

lawman349

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Ralph-

The cost associated with rebroadcasting Fire/EMS is offset by the benefit of the volunteer service and the tax dollards saved there.

...and I beg to differ on the lack of public input. The county commissioner's doors are always open. Letters could be written. And, lets not forget how many CITIZEN VOLUNTEER fire and EMS personnel had THEIR say. Seems to me there was plenty of opportunity for public input.

Truthfully, I would rather have seen the county trunk the VHF freqs and have a digital/trunked system like STARS in Virginia, but we got what we got and we are waaaaayyyy better off than we were! I am grateful for the tax dollars spent on this and I am cocnvinced it was money well spent.
 

RALPHLUCAS

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Greetings again 349, a.k.a. J.C.H.

Say hi to 48 for me.

Would like to know how your statement:
(The cost associated with rebroadcasting Fire/EMS is offset by the benefit of the volunteer service and the tax dollards saved there) saves tax dollars?

The obvious reverse of that is:
By not rebroadcasting CCSO and the subsequent loss of "this kind of information sharing and we hope it will continue" (citizen participation wanted by Sheriff Davis) CAN be an acceptable benefit loss.

Additionally, the money (and as yet no one has told me how much) saved by terminated simulcasting apparently is being considered as another offset to citizen volunteer service. That reasoning would be counter to the Sheriffs statement.

Regarding your statement:

...and I beg to differ on the lack of public input. The county commissioner's doors are always open. Letters could be written. And, lets not forget how many CITIZEN VOLUNTEER fire and EMS personnel had THEIR say. Seems to me there was plenty of opportunity for public input

Had the citizen public been informed initially of the plan and regular notification of the meetings printed in the media, there would have been more opportunity for public input. Letters then could have been written. Don't forget there was opposition by some volunteer fire and ems personnel, but they were met with polite apathy.
I agree that the County commissioner's doors are always open, it would be nice to find them in their office to discuss these issues however.

Yep, ur right in that the county would have been wiser to trunk the VHF freqs and use a system like STARS. The users of the system are better off than before...for now.

The tax dollars spent without the public knowing about the pig in the poke before the pig got sold was a political slick deal. Now that the public who own El cheapo monitors who have helped CCSO in the past, find out that they have paid $25 million in tax dollars to junk their own equipment, may
want an accounting. Especially when they find the replacement cost of compliant equipment, and even more so should they not have a computer to facilitate programming.

Your are right. We got what we got...and the citizen public don't got what they had.
 

lawman349

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Ralph-

Charles County saves BIG bucks by having a mostly volunteer fire/EMS system. The 800 is rebroadcast on VHF for THEIR use, not your amusement. I am glad you are able to listen, but, simply put, the transmissions heard on VHF are intended to assist the volunteer community. Not having to PAY the volunteers saves money. Therefore, the continued cost of maintenance on the VHF system for that purpose is negligible if compared to the cost of employing full-time personnel at each station.

...and the media DID cover this...why not write Jay Friess and have him send you a copy of all the stories you obviously missed?

With regards to citizens monitoring CCSO communications, I suppose it is a matter of individual budget. You and I both know if we want something badly enough, we'll find a way to buy it...that, sir, is the American Way! I personally LIKE to public to hear me...it makes me a sort of mini-celebrity in this little county. ( Yuk, Yuk!) Seriously, though...I HAVE had some good leads from citizens who were listening. No one is trying to take that away, Ralph.

...and, contrary to your assertion, the public STILL has what it HAD prior to the changeover, Ralph!

--it has an open-access, non-encrypted radio system the public can monitor...

--it has the Sheriff's Office and Fire/EMS forging partnerships with the community...

--it has the Maryland Independent and other news organizations informing them about such public events and expenditures...

The sky isnt falling, Ralph. Charles county is growing. Look at this as an opportunity to expand the Ham Shack with a new digital capable scanner.

73's Sir.

OUT.
 
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