Chicago, IL - New radio system still in the air for Fire Department

[radioman2001]

For the most part, politics and money aside, the CFD SHOULD have issued the UHF portables for fire-ground OPS. They don't need to talk to the dispatcher, which may be on another band, but they do need to talk to their on scene command (as FDNY does now). The new radios in analog would have fulfilled that need and maybe prevented this disaster of 2 LOD. It's amazing how the white shirts sometime fail to realize something that they would have seen plain as day when the were on the front lines. You can't send someone in to do a job without the right tools. I bet CFD is running around trying to figure out how to spin this in their favor, rather than say we screwed up and issue the radios. In analog!!!
I really wish that the Fire Association would just make it a rule that no fire-ground operation is to digitial or repeated.

 

[FFPM571]

Just because someting Kind of works in NY doesnt mean it would here. The CFD has used analog VHF for 50+ years. They arent trying to spin it in their favor. The commisioner said he would not put something out in the field that wasnt ready to use.. It bad enough that the EMS is on UHF and when they have to contact a VHF supression company most times they have to relay it though the dispatcher. It is impractable for crews and their officers to have to carry 2 radios

 

[radioman2001]

I've been to Chicago and monitored their fire-ground ops, it's no different than FDNY, and it doesn't "kind work" in NYC, that's how it is. FDNY has been VHF since they invented it, and it worked, but with the FCC realigning the frequencies that were used for fire ground ops from a 2 watt channel to a 110 watt channel they had to move. FDNY is still dispatched on VHF (for now), the man radios are UHF carrier squelch(which I don't agree with but understand their thinking on it), which have a better building penetration than the VHF. (excluding GCT which has a old in tunnel repeater system that is being updated to UHF at this time) This still doesn't relieve the Chiefs from the responsibility of having had radios in storage while the front line troops didn't have enough. FDNY took a bad situation (after a few close calls) and made good with it by taking all their digitally programmed radios and going analog, CFD could have done the same while working out the kinks of their new system. This whole nonsense of going digital is from the salespeople, who eventually want all P.S. to go encrypted, and it's a lot easier to do digitally.
The main thing here in relation to the LOD deaths is it's not the band that they operate on, or even the mode analog vs digital, it's that someone high up didn't step up and say, STOP lets go back and rethink this before someone gets hurt.
I worked NYC EMS for 10 years, and the fact that we were on UHF and FD was on VHF had very little to do with our patient care. We always when we had to was have a face to face with the command officer on scene before we started, you don't need a radio for that.
The department that I am in now, can have as many as 4 radios at command at a big scene, it's all about command and control. You have to know what you people are doing at all times, and if it takes 2,4 or 10 radios that's what it takes. If the officer is on one channel and some one is calling a MAYDAY on another it doesn't matter if it's on a different band or a different radio. He or she should be listening.

 

[MTS2000des]

Just because someting Kind of works in NY doesnt mean it would here. The CFD has used analog VHF for 50+ years. They arent trying to spin it in their favor. The commisioner said he would not put something out in the field that wasnt ready to use.. It bad enough that the EMS is on UHF and when they have to contact a VHF supression company most times they have to relay it though the dispatcher. It is impractable for crews and their officers to have to carry 2 radios

So the commissioner puts NOTHING in the hands of men and women while waiting for their no-bid vendor to "work the kinks out" for 5 years? I find this absurd. The band issue could be solved by using crossband repeaters as radioman2001 said, FDNY addressed that issue, and not to beat a dead horse, but tell me again WHY these XTS5000's couldn't have been setup on some simplex fireground channels until this "new" system infrastructure was built out?

Instead these men and women have NOTHING in many cases and now two have paid for their lives. Unacceptable. Absurd.

SIDENOTE: Atlanta Fire dispatches their EMS calls separately, as does Grady EMS, both agencies operate on the Atlanta Astro 25 DTRS and rarely interact over the air. Grady has their own comm center and talkgroups, and is rarely if ever on AFD for Fire Tac talkgroups. EMS and fire suppression is about as diverse as FD and PD operations. This whole business about "PD being able to talk to FD" over the air is not done in the real world. Two different missions with totally different command structures.

But the radio salesman will tell you otherwise.

 

[jasonpeoria911]

Actually, FD talking to PD on the PD system channels does happen quite a few times in Phoenix and Los Angeles. They mainly do it in staging situations where PD has command and the Officers can directly talk to the FD staff waiting to be cleared into the scene.

Jason

..... This whole business about "PD being able to talk to FD" over the air is not done in the real world. Two different missions with totally different command structures.

But the radio salesman will tell you otherwise.

 

[RADIOUSER5]

For the most part, politics and money aside, the CFD SHOULD have issued the UHF portables for fire-ground OPS. They don't need to talk to the dispatcher, which may be on another band, but they do need to talk to their on scene command (as FDNY does now). The new radios in analog would have fulfilled that need and maybe prevented this disaster of 2 LOD. It's amazing how the white shirts sometime fail to realize something that they would have seen plain as day when the were on the front lines. You can't send someone in to do a job without the right tools. I bet CFD is running around trying to figure out how to spin this in their favor, rather than say we screwed up and issue the radios. In analog!!!
I really wish that the Fire Association would just make it a rule that no fire-ground operation is to digitial or repeated.

NFPA Recommendation 1221 does call for direct analog on fire ground and has for years.

 

[ts548]

NFPA Recommendation 1221 does call for direct analog on fire ground and has for years.

But its only a recommendation, I know plenty of departments that are using digital repeated and work off that on a daily basis with no problems.

 

[radioman2001]

The fact that some department use digital and repeated systems still goes against NFPA policy, and guess what is going to happen when it screws up and some one dies. That is going to be the first thing the lawyer is going to bring up,"why weren't you following good practice as stated in the NFPA policy" Digital and repeated systems have no bussiness being used on a fire scene, why do I have to talk through a repeater X miles away to talk to someone across the street! NFPA needs to get this put into a law as they have on the life cycle of fire gear, I don't know how may sets of brand new gear we cut up into little pieces before we threw them out at $1,500.00 each. The question still stands, why didn't CFD use the radios it had in storage in analog, until problems with the system were addressed? If it were my family that would be my lawyers first question at the inquiry in to the LOD deaths.
I see a lot of retirements coming.

 

[FFPM571]

There is no law about Gear.. someone is selling you a line of BS. NFPA is a standard not a law.. Also alot of fire departments donate old gear to lesser fortunate departments


NFPA :: Codes & Standards :: Code development process :: Disclaimers

"The NFPA has no power, nor does it undertake, to police or enforce compliance with the contents of NFPA Documents. Nor does the NFPA list, certify, test, or inspect products, designs, or installations for compliance with this document. Any certification or other statement of compliance with the requirements of this document shall not be attributable to the NFPA and is solely the responsibility of the certifier or maker of the statement."

 

[ts548]

There is no law about Gear.. someone is selling you a line of BS. NFPA is a standard not a law.. Also alot of fire departments donate old gear to lesser fortunate departments


NFPA :: Codes & Standards :: Code development process :: Disclaimers

"The NFPA has no power, nor does it undertake, to police or enforce compliance with the contents of NFPA Documents. Nor does the NFPA list, certify, test, or inspect products, designs, or installations for compliance with this document. Any certification or other statement of compliance with the requirements of this document shall not be attributable to the NFPA and is solely the responsibility of the certifier or maker of the statement."

Don't try to use logic on here, some just don't understand.