I recently purchased a TYT MD390 v/u and have to say it is an excellent radio for the price. I think you are looking at a mobile analog radio so this may not be exactly apples to apples. That being said my understanding is TYT receivers, vs. the Chinese competition, are superhet vs direct conversion and as such have better front ends in regards to desense and intermod. The build quality is very good and the package includes a CD for the software which worked straight out of the box. I am in a high RF environment and the TYT MD390 works great. I have other bigger name radios (Y,I.M) to compare and would say if budget is a factor the TYT probably a good choice. Good luck!
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Chineese Radios/Established brands
- Thread starter E5911
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Get the genuine Baofeng, not the crap Chinese clones. Very suitable for the average ham.
Not sure if you're being serious, but Baofeng is the poster child for CCRs, with terrible performance. I would have a hard time coming up with anything worse.
gman1971
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All of those CCRs have also poor TX quality, as they emit all kinds of spurious garbage RF... which can, and will, damage sensitive electronics (like monitors) if you operate CCRs nearby these devices. (Don't ask me how I know, it hurts)...
Then the receivers are missing and devoid of any filtering, regardless of receiver architecture design used (superhet, direct) Only the very expensive CCR, like the AT-578UV, has some filtering, but compared to used LMR (commercial grade) radios that can be found for 1/3 the price with better overall performance, and that doesn't freeze up... For example, the AT-578 has a 4 varactor tuned front end, but the EVX-5400 has 5, which translates into better performance under urban conditions due to better RF filtering before the 1st IF stage, which is critical for superhets.
I would consider buying commercial used radios before buying anything CCR. In the past 6 months I've moved all the radios on my fleet and facilities to used Motorola XPR7550e and SL7550, performance improvement was noticeable, to say the least.
G.
Then the receivers are missing and devoid of any filtering, regardless of receiver architecture design used (superhet, direct) Only the very expensive CCR, like the AT-578UV, has some filtering, but compared to used LMR (commercial grade) radios that can be found for 1/3 the price with better overall performance, and that doesn't freeze up... For example, the AT-578 has a 4 varactor tuned front end, but the EVX-5400 has 5, which translates into better performance under urban conditions due to better RF filtering before the 1st IF stage, which is critical for superhets.
I would consider buying commercial used radios before buying anything CCR. In the past 6 months I've moved all the radios on my fleet and facilities to used Motorola XPR7550e and SL7550, performance improvement was noticeable, to say the least.
G.
The old saying you get what you pay for is and always has been true.
petnrdx
Member
As most others have stated, most of the Chinese radios are very poor performers.
I have put several on the bench and they really are junk for the most part.
One exception for me is the Hytera PD362 little cell phone looking DMR one.
They work great in my opinion.
Still not the audio of a Motorola, but as a VERY lightweight "carry" radio for listening, they work good for me.
Too bad about the copyright infringement.
I think they might have been making some OK radios.
B-feng, etc. are just one of those "you get what you pay for" things.
I have put several on the bench and they really are junk for the most part.
One exception for me is the Hytera PD362 little cell phone looking DMR one.
They work great in my opinion.
Still not the audio of a Motorola, but as a VERY lightweight "carry" radio for listening, they work good for me.
Too bad about the copyright infringement.
I think they might have been making some OK radios.
B-feng, etc. are just one of those "you get what you pay for" things.
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
The bigger picture is the overall impact low quality electronic devices are the ever increasing noise floor across the usable radio spectrum. This RF pollution will be felt as much as much as an oil spill in an ocean. It will take years to clean up, if ever. When the noise floor is so high, everyone will be shouting yet no one will be able to hear what anyone is saying.
Not just CCRs, but poorly filtered switching power supplies found in millions of charging devices, LED lights, you name it, once our regulatory bodies cared about "incidental radiators" they've turned a blind eye and we're all going slowly deaf to RF because of it.
RF spectrum: respect it, or learn to live without it.
Not just CCRs, but poorly filtered switching power supplies found in millions of charging devices, LED lights, you name it, once our regulatory bodies cared about "incidental radiators" they've turned a blind eye and we're all going slowly deaf to RF because of it.
RF spectrum: respect it, or learn to live without it.
gman1971
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Of course the Hytera is better, b/c it wasn't just a copyright infringement, it was IP theft, Patent Infringment, source code stealing, employees who stole design stuff... While Motorola has its fair share of problems, this is on a different level altogether. I personally don't recommend owning anything made bt Hytera, if you do, you're basically supporting with your wallet the practice of these illegal tactics. JMO.
G.
G.
gman1971
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Did you arrive to that conclusion on your own, from your own measurements? Or you say that because others claim so?
I own several Anytones, that I've measured under several conditions with an ISO-tee, and while they are a little better, they are still far from Motorola quality or performance, yet their cost has gone so far up that used high end XPR radios now offer a much better price/performance.... and won't freeze up when you might need them the most.
G.
I own several Anytones, that I've measured under several conditions with an ISO-tee, and while they are a little better, they are still far from Motorola quality or performance, yet their cost has gone so far up that used high end XPR radios now offer a much better price/performance.... and won't freeze up when you might need them the most.
G.
I haven't thrown them on the bench, but the receive is almost on-par with my 7550e radios, which have pretty much the undisputed hottest receivers on the market. The difference is barely noticeable. Of course, they are subject to more desense, etc. But they are fantastic radios for the price. Really just depends on what you need and what you are looking for. For ham use, the features on the Anytone are far better and far more useful than the /\/\oto. The dual band is very nice too. So you can compare a used /\/\oto to the price of a new Anytone, but don't forget the fact that you would need 2 radios to cover the same bands.
gman1971
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The measured AT-578UV "Effective Sensitivity" (the best Anytone radio I own) using ISO-tee with a 1/4 wave NMO, on a car (not on the bench), under real world conditions (not on a lab), was measured 13 dBm inferior to the XPR5550e "Effective Sensitivity". but if you call a 13 dBm difference "barely noticeable"or "almost on-par" well that's a different story. A 13 dBm difference is the equivalent of running 5 watts vs 100 watts... but that isn't much a difference either... well....
Now, when the 5550e can't hear an incoming signal it is certain that its b/c the radio is truly out of range... whereas before, with the Anytones or other CCRs, I didn't really know why... well, I know now... b/c of poor "effective sensitivity"
I also own MD5s and 878s... which both measured worse than the AT-578UV on the ISO-tee tests... In contrast, the 7550e/5550e measured the best "Effective Sensitivity" of any radio I've owned to date... for any antenna they were tested on. Another interesting find for those AT, and CCRs, was that the higher the antenna gain, the "Effective Sensitivity" tanked further, and not proportionally either, a 4.5 dBb antenna gain lowered by an extra 10 dBm the effective sensitivity loss on the AT-578, up to -47 dBm on some of the bottom of the barrel TYTs, which is the same thing as reducing overall SNR... which is what radio reception range is all about: SNR. You want the best possible SNR, and the XPRs offer better SNR than any other CCR on the market... for equal or less cost than the "top of the line" CCRs.
Ah, the dual/tri/quad/penta band gimmick... ah, yes, that is exactly how they get you (they got me, at least) to buy those things, they add all those flashy extra features, like dual receivers, 1000k contacts, 10 bands, gazillion channels, color screens... but most beginners don't realize that any test they perform using established repeaters is always doomed to succeed, and only when you try to use these radios to communicate without established infrastructure (no repeaters), or using your own infrastructure, then that is when you realize these radios are inferior, and you start questioning yourself "what good were those extra features if I can't hear the other radio?", the answer was pretty clear for me.
The problem most beginners don't realize is that designing and building a radio is like making a role playing character. You are given a fixed number of points, to be distributed among different attributes, and those attributes determine what your character is good at, and what isn't. When you cannot compete in receiver tech (IMO, the most important feature on a radio), then you have to make up for it somewhere else... be it screens, be it dual bands... etc... to give the false impression of a "better value". You won't miss what you can't hear... that sums it all up, I think.
The gist of owning Motorola, for me at least, was not only about having the best receivers, which IMO is probably the most important component on a radio, next one being the transmitter; no, it was also a matter of usability. The Motorolas are designed to be used daily, which includes the radios not freezing up on me, constantly, and unexpectedly like the Anytones did. I then realized that those ATs are notorious for freezing up... requiring power cycling them. Another complain from my subscribers was that the Anytones always missed the first 1/2 of nearly all transmissions, its like if the CPU they have is just too slow, as in too cheap... that alone caused a lot of frustration among my subscribers when we tried those radios a year or so ago... Then audio quality, lets me state that the XPR radios are on another dimension in audio quality, and the noise cancellation is ridiculously good with the enhancer noise suppressor, even basic is good too... useful bells and whistles, that is, which make the radio a better value, plus a top notch receiver.
I can go on and on... the price point is about the same for used XPR vs new Anytones.
G.
Now, when the 5550e can't hear an incoming signal it is certain that its b/c the radio is truly out of range... whereas before, with the Anytones or other CCRs, I didn't really know why... well, I know now... b/c of poor "effective sensitivity"
I also own MD5s and 878s... which both measured worse than the AT-578UV on the ISO-tee tests... In contrast, the 7550e/5550e measured the best "Effective Sensitivity" of any radio I've owned to date... for any antenna they were tested on. Another interesting find for those AT, and CCRs, was that the higher the antenna gain, the "Effective Sensitivity" tanked further, and not proportionally either, a 4.5 dBb antenna gain lowered by an extra 10 dBm the effective sensitivity loss on the AT-578, up to -47 dBm on some of the bottom of the barrel TYTs, which is the same thing as reducing overall SNR... which is what radio reception range is all about: SNR. You want the best possible SNR, and the XPRs offer better SNR than any other CCR on the market... for equal or less cost than the "top of the line" CCRs.
Ah, the dual/tri/quad/penta band gimmick... ah, yes, that is exactly how they get you (they got me, at least) to buy those things, they add all those flashy extra features, like dual receivers, 1000k contacts, 10 bands, gazillion channels, color screens... but most beginners don't realize that any test they perform using established repeaters is always doomed to succeed, and only when you try to use these radios to communicate without established infrastructure (no repeaters), or using your own infrastructure, then that is when you realize these radios are inferior, and you start questioning yourself "what good were those extra features if I can't hear the other radio?", the answer was pretty clear for me.
The problem most beginners don't realize is that designing and building a radio is like making a role playing character. You are given a fixed number of points, to be distributed among different attributes, and those attributes determine what your character is good at, and what isn't. When you cannot compete in receiver tech (IMO, the most important feature on a radio), then you have to make up for it somewhere else... be it screens, be it dual bands... etc... to give the false impression of a "better value". You won't miss what you can't hear... that sums it all up, I think.
The gist of owning Motorola, for me at least, was not only about having the best receivers, which IMO is probably the most important component on a radio, next one being the transmitter; no, it was also a matter of usability. The Motorolas are designed to be used daily, which includes the radios not freezing up on me, constantly, and unexpectedly like the Anytones did. I then realized that those ATs are notorious for freezing up... requiring power cycling them. Another complain from my subscribers was that the Anytones always missed the first 1/2 of nearly all transmissions, its like if the CPU they have is just too slow, as in too cheap... that alone caused a lot of frustration among my subscribers when we tried those radios a year or so ago... Then audio quality, lets me state that the XPR radios are on another dimension in audio quality, and the noise cancellation is ridiculously good with the enhancer noise suppressor, even basic is good too... useful bells and whistles, that is, which make the radio a better value, plus a top notch receiver.
I can go on and on... the price point is about the same for used XPR vs new Anytones.
G.
You have your tests and I have mine. I simply run my radios side by side and listen to the difference. Like I said, I haven't put them on the bench...yet. Haven't needed to. I don't own a 578, but I can tell you that between the 878 and 7550e, there is barely a difference in receive, especially with weak signals. The 878 pulls in signals that a 6550, Hytera, and just about every other radio refused to pull in, of course besides the 7550.
Dual band or tri-band is a gimmick? Lmao! It gives you 2m and and in the case of the 578 1.25m. That's hardly a gimmick, if you actually use those bands, like most hams do. If you're trying to use them for business, yeah, it probably makes no difference, except on the itinerant channels, if you're licensed for that. The other features, eh. I find the promiscuous mode and such on the Anytone to be highly useful, as well as the CTCSS/DCS scan. The other stuff I could do with or without. The lockup issues only happened for me once or twice, and only on super busy or complex systems. A firmware update fixed that, and I haven't experienced that for about a year.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Motorolas. I have an entire fleet of 5550e and 7550e, probably 50+ of each currently. I wouldn't give them up for anything, especially considering the RX audio leveling. It's a godsend. We don't use the Anytones for business. We use the Motorolas. Just because the Anytone is Part 90 certified doesn't mean you should use it for serious business. If you're trying to use a CCR as a replacement in your business radio system, that's on you. It is largely marketed to the ham radio community as a ham radio. And as a ham radio, the Anytone is extremely capable.
Dual band or tri-band is a gimmick? Lmao! It gives you 2m and and in the case of the 578 1.25m. That's hardly a gimmick, if you actually use those bands, like most hams do. If you're trying to use them for business, yeah, it probably makes no difference, except on the itinerant channels, if you're licensed for that. The other features, eh. I find the promiscuous mode and such on the Anytone to be highly useful, as well as the CTCSS/DCS scan. The other stuff I could do with or without. The lockup issues only happened for me once or twice, and only on super busy or complex systems. A firmware update fixed that, and I haven't experienced that for about a year.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Motorolas. I have an entire fleet of 5550e and 7550e, probably 50+ of each currently. I wouldn't give them up for anything, especially considering the RX audio leveling. It's a godsend. We don't use the Anytones for business. We use the Motorolas. Just because the Anytone is Part 90 certified doesn't mean you should use it for serious business. If you're trying to use a CCR as a replacement in your business radio system, that's on you. It is largely marketed to the ham radio community as a ham radio. And as a ham radio, the Anytone is extremely capable.
gman1971
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It would be great if we could actually contrasts results using measured data, rather than something that you've observed during your voyages to the grocery store, or other places. Opinions are best saved for the bar, where we can talk in person, face to face, and get a good laugh while at it. Text only communication is so devoid of any emotional cues...
The 6550 measured with ISO-tee scored better than the 878, and especially so under heavy RF situations, how much? around 10dBm better "effective sensitivity" with a 1/4 wave NMO antenna on a car. The issue with the 6550 lies in its squelch settings, as the squelch cannot be aligned (that I know of) to open up below a certain threshold... no matter what. Even though the radio is more than capable of hearing signals fainter than its squelch performance allows it to. The Vertex EVX radios also suffered from this problem, but with a simple SQL alignment you can make the EVX radios open at around +3 dBm above noise threshold. The 7550e doesn't suffer from this problem, so long you use PL/DCS codes in FM or you use DMR... else, if you don't use PL/DCS, the 7550e radios are also bound by the same squelch limit the 6550 have.
It seems to me that based on this conversation you should replace all your 50+ Motorolas with triband AT-578s... b/c you know, if they are near equal performance, it won't matter... right? ...
You don't have to answer that, b/c I already know the answer to that.... which is what I find so freaking misleading: how can someone who owns 50+ Motorola radios, and won't give them up for AT-578s when asked, how can these people recommend a ATs radios to others in the first place. There is something missing there... I hear plenty of people hating on Motorola practices, Motorola this, Motorola that... Motorola sucks, etc... yet these Motorola haters own entire fleets of... Motorolas... so what is it that Motorolas have that even people who hate Motorola with all your soul still purchase entire fleets of them? I think I know the answer... b/c they are BETTER!!!
As for promiscuous mode, etc... I discovered this thing... how is it called... aah.. a scanner!! holy batman scanner... these things are actually amazing!! The latest ones I can buy come with everything preloaded too, so I can listen to everything, on any modulation,... And when I need that extra oomph to investigate around, and satisfy my "noseiness"... I also found this other thing, how is it called.... an SDR... oh man, that thing with waterfall display? Like a submarine sonar!! its so darn cool, and you get to decode any modulation too... plus more.
The best analogy I can think of for the AT-578 is the multi-tool, its a handy thing to get some minor repairs done, but when you need to fix things the right way, a multi tool is no substitute for a garage full of tools and power tools.
I really think multiband is a gimmick when receiver performance suffers just to stuff features on the brochure. I much rather have a single band radio with excellent performance, than a tri-band with average performance that won't reach further than 2 miles. When I am ready to step up I'll probably start buying APX7000 multibanders... but again, now that I have excellent single band reliable comms, I realized I have no need for a multibander at all... now I can communicate just fine on one band... something the AT578 with all its bands couldn't do, and that the EVXs and XPRs with only one managed to do just fine... so...
G.
The 6550 measured with ISO-tee scored better than the 878, and especially so under heavy RF situations, how much? around 10dBm better "effective sensitivity" with a 1/4 wave NMO antenna on a car. The issue with the 6550 lies in its squelch settings, as the squelch cannot be aligned (that I know of) to open up below a certain threshold... no matter what. Even though the radio is more than capable of hearing signals fainter than its squelch performance allows it to. The Vertex EVX radios also suffered from this problem, but with a simple SQL alignment you can make the EVX radios open at around +3 dBm above noise threshold. The 7550e doesn't suffer from this problem, so long you use PL/DCS codes in FM or you use DMR... else, if you don't use PL/DCS, the 7550e radios are also bound by the same squelch limit the 6550 have.
It seems to me that based on this conversation you should replace all your 50+ Motorolas with triband AT-578s... b/c you know, if they are near equal performance, it won't matter... right? ...
You don't have to answer that, b/c I already know the answer to that.... which is what I find so freaking misleading: how can someone who owns 50+ Motorola radios, and won't give them up for AT-578s when asked, how can these people recommend a ATs radios to others in the first place. There is something missing there... I hear plenty of people hating on Motorola practices, Motorola this, Motorola that... Motorola sucks, etc... yet these Motorola haters own entire fleets of... Motorolas... so what is it that Motorolas have that even people who hate Motorola with all your soul still purchase entire fleets of them? I think I know the answer... b/c they are BETTER!!!
As for promiscuous mode, etc... I discovered this thing... how is it called... aah.. a scanner!! holy batman scanner... these things are actually amazing!! The latest ones I can buy come with everything preloaded too, so I can listen to everything, on any modulation,... And when I need that extra oomph to investigate around, and satisfy my "noseiness"... I also found this other thing, how is it called.... an SDR... oh man, that thing with waterfall display? Like a submarine sonar!! its so darn cool, and you get to decode any modulation too... plus more.
The best analogy I can think of for the AT-578 is the multi-tool, its a handy thing to get some minor repairs done, but when you need to fix things the right way, a multi tool is no substitute for a garage full of tools and power tools.
I really think multiband is a gimmick when receiver performance suffers just to stuff features on the brochure. I much rather have a single band radio with excellent performance, than a tri-band with average performance that won't reach further than 2 miles. When I am ready to step up I'll probably start buying APX7000 multibanders... but again, now that I have excellent single band reliable comms, I realized I have no need for a multibander at all... now I can communicate just fine on one band... something the AT578 with all its bands couldn't do, and that the EVXs and XPRs with only one managed to do just fine... so...
G.
You magically seem to be continuously [and very intentionally] misinterpreting what I'm saying.
We can measure data all we want. The fact of the matter is that measured data on test equipment in a laboratory does not equate at all to real world use. Look at all the ham radios with amazing sensitivity and selectivity, but you put them next to many other radios, and they just get blown away. You can take all the ISO-tee measurements you want, I can tell you how my radios have performed in the real world. How they perform in a lab means absolutely nothing to me. Zero.
And now you're just being downright silly, and you know it. Why would I replace my business radios with ham radios? Does that make any sense to you at all? There is a lot more to it than simply performance. For example, I don't expect an Anytone to survive a fall off of a two story roof. The Motorola? All day every day. If you want to continue being silly, you're very quickly going to be having this conversation with yourself.
Again, you're being ridiculous. Nowhere did I say I hate Motorola. I don't think anything I said would classify me as being a "Motorola hater." In fact, I absolutely love Motorola radios. They're fantastic. Like I said, I own a ton of them for my business. Mostly 5550e and 7550e with a smattering of CP200d and even a few repeaters.
So you don't make the mistake of completely missing my point yet again, one is a business radio, one is a ham radio. Let's say it together. One is a business radio. One is a ham radio. One is marketed to businesses, one is marketed to amateur radio operators. Am I clear now? So when it comes to the two radios, I would very likely choose the Anytone over the Motorola as a ham radio operator, due to the similarity in performance, and the features directed toward amateur radio operators. For my business, I use the Motorola radios.
Ahhhhhhhhh, I see. So now, you need a second Motorola radio to cover 2m, AND you need a scanner, just to cover what the Anytone does out of the box!! Outstanding!!! Yeah...holy Batman indeed! Just what I want to do, is carry 3 radios around now instead of 1. Wow...I really wish I would have thought about using a scanner. Truly enlightening, you are! How about that price comparison now? Would you like to compare the price of a new Anytone to the price of 2 Motorola radios and a digital scanner? Still almost equal?
Yeah...power tools indeed! Let's take your analogy to once again make my point. One is a ham radio, one is a business radio. One has features geared toward ham radio operators; one has featured geared toward businesses. You use the proper tool for the job.
We can measure data all we want. The fact of the matter is that measured data on test equipment in a laboratory does not equate at all to real world use. Look at all the ham radios with amazing sensitivity and selectivity, but you put them next to many other radios, and they just get blown away. You can take all the ISO-tee measurements you want, I can tell you how my radios have performed in the real world. How they perform in a lab means absolutely nothing to me. Zero.
And now you're just being downright silly, and you know it. Why would I replace my business radios with ham radios? Does that make any sense to you at all? There is a lot more to it than simply performance. For example, I don't expect an Anytone to survive a fall off of a two story roof. The Motorola? All day every day. If you want to continue being silly, you're very quickly going to be having this conversation with yourself.
Again, you're being ridiculous. Nowhere did I say I hate Motorola. I don't think anything I said would classify me as being a "Motorola hater." In fact, I absolutely love Motorola radios. They're fantastic. Like I said, I own a ton of them for my business. Mostly 5550e and 7550e with a smattering of CP200d and even a few repeaters.
So you don't make the mistake of completely missing my point yet again, one is a business radio, one is a ham radio. Let's say it together. One is a business radio. One is a ham radio. One is marketed to businesses, one is marketed to amateur radio operators. Am I clear now? So when it comes to the two radios, I would very likely choose the Anytone over the Motorola as a ham radio operator, due to the similarity in performance, and the features directed toward amateur radio operators. For my business, I use the Motorola radios.
Ahhhhhhhhh, I see. So now, you need a second Motorola radio to cover 2m, AND you need a scanner, just to cover what the Anytone does out of the box!! Outstanding!!! Yeah...holy Batman indeed! Just what I want to do, is carry 3 radios around now instead of 1. Wow...I really wish I would have thought about using a scanner. Truly enlightening, you are! How about that price comparison now? Would you like to compare the price of a new Anytone to the price of 2 Motorola radios and a digital scanner? Still almost equal?
Yeah...power tools indeed! Let's take your analogy to once again make my point. One is a ham radio, one is a business radio. One has features geared toward ham radio operators; one has featured geared toward businesses. You use the proper tool for the job.
gman1971
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And what makes you think that? Your presumption of me doing things intentionally is preposterous at best. You don't know me at all, and the little you might think you know me is not enough to emit such ridiculous comments about my intentions.
Well, that's all great, so lets end this:
->You use AT for Ham, and Motorola for business. Great, good for you.
->I use Motorola/Vertex for GMRS, and Motorola/Vertex for business, and a scanner to listen around. Great, good for me.
I tried CCRs (including AT) for GMRS first, and the performance wasn't there for a decent family radio link, when I moved to Motorola/Vertex gear everything worked, 20+ miles range on my private GMRS repeater. Couldn't get more than 5 on the AT gear, so no, the AT gear and the Motorola/Vertex gear are not similar performance.
That is all there is to it.
G.
Well, that's all great, so lets end this:
->You use AT for Ham, and Motorola for business. Great, good for you.
->I use Motorola/Vertex for GMRS, and Motorola/Vertex for business, and a scanner to listen around. Great, good for me.
I tried CCRs (including AT) for GMRS first, and the performance wasn't there for a decent family radio link, when I moved to Motorola/Vertex gear everything worked, 20+ miles range on my private GMRS repeater. Couldn't get more than 5 on the AT gear, so no, the AT gear and the Motorola/Vertex gear are not similar performance.
That is all there is to it.
G.
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