CHP to Trunking

[HappilyRetired]

As I understand it, CHP is moving to a trunked system sometime in the future. In San Diego County they're already experimenting with CHP utilizing the county system. At what point in time does one expect CHP to be trunked and sadly encrypted? I'm at a point of investing in an antenna and I don't want to waste my money if they're just going trunked and encrypted.

The same applies to LAPD and LASD and County Fire. It's my understanding that they also are going to trunked and encrypted. My questions are not about encryption. It is what it is. I was going to install a base antenna that covered both LAPD and LASD but if they're going trunked and encrypted again another waste of money.

Any idea on what kind of time frame to look forward to?

 

[mmckenna]

As I understand it, CHP is moving to a trunked system sometime in the future. In San Diego County they're already experimenting with CHP utilizing the county system. At what point in time does one expect CHP to be trunked and sadly encrypted? I'm at a point of investing in an antenna and I don't want to waste my money if they're just going trunked and encrypted.


Any idea on what kind of time frame to look forward to?

No idea about LA.

CHP is planning on migrating to the statewide CRIS system, and has started testing. From what I've read here, some areas around Sacramento are already using it. CRIS can interface to other radio systems fairly easily, so CHP utilizing local trunked systems is a possibility.

The CRIS system is not fully built out, and it does not cover 100% of the state. They'll be on low band for quite a while in parts of the state.

I think you'd be safe with a good low band antenna for many years to come.

 

[Ravenfalls]

CRIS in So Cal is built to cover western and central for the most part.

Eastern from Needles to El Centro are next along with Onyx Pk and Chuckwalla. Toro Pk was just added.

LA to San Diego is mostly complete.

CHP is expected to expand area to area from Sacramento.

CHP can 'immediately' switch and rely on current towers + cellular in non built out areas.
I 'doubt' that CHP would rely on cell alone as it's ment as a backup to towers and travel.

LASD dispatch will fully switch before LAPD does.
LASD tacs are already on the system. No reports of them falling back to conventional for tacs. Time frame, no idea for 💯 switch.
The LASD system now has better coverage than conventional.

 

[HappilyRetired]

I guess I should have said in my original message that I'm fully aware of CRIS. It sounds like they have expanded the system enough and are using the cellular sites to fill in. Or perhaps they're leasing space on existing systems such as San Bernardino County and Orange County plus San Diego county. Since CHP is intended to enforce traffic laws on the freeways and since cell sites are intended to cover within three miles of a freeway they most likely can achieve coverage until they build out the CRIS system further.

FWIW, San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department and their trunked system have proven that with their key sites they can cover their mountain and desert areas just fine. I had previously wondered why they left their old VHF repeater system.

There seems to be a difference of opinion here as to how long CHP will remain on low band. I don't want to drop $300+ dollars into a base station antenna dedicated to CHP if they're already well on their way to CRIS.

Sad to hear that LASD L-tacs have gone to the trunking system. Encrypted I'm sure.

 

[f40ph]

San Bernardino Sheriff in the early 90s left their old VHF system because they had 3 repeater and/or fixed base channels and a few direct channels. They simply needed more but nothing was available in the VHF range.

 

[mmckenna]

and since cell sites are intended to cover within three miles of a freeway they most likely can achieve coverage until they build out the CRIS system further.
...
There seems to be a difference of opinion here as to how long CHP will remain on low band. I don't want to drop $300+ dollars into a base station antenna dedicated to CHP if they're already well on their way to CRIS.

I think that's partially accurate for many parts of the southern part of the state, but it's not the case for the northern part of the state. Still areas with no cell coverage and no CRIS coverage. Long sections of Highway 1 have neither. Even low band gets spotty along there. Big chunks of far Northern California are the same.

If you are in Southern California and want to listen to the local stuff, you are probably right. I still think there's going to be a fair amount of low band action in the state for many years to come.

 

[HappilyRetired]

San Bernardino Sheriff in the early 90s left their old VHF system because they had 3 repeater and/or fixed base channels and a few direct channels. They simply needed more but nothing was available in the VHF range.

My point was that I was surprised that they went to 800 MHz rather than expanding on UHF. From my studies, as well as from my monitoring, 800 doesn't work well for San Bernardino County in the mountains or the desert. More so in the mountain because of the dense foliage. UHF would have been a better in between the mix in my opinion. But I'm new at this and they know more than I do and as long as it works for them that's all that matters.

 

[HappilyRetired]

I think that's partially accurate for many parts of the southern part of the state, but it's not the case for the northern part of the state. Still areas with no cell coverage and no CRIS coverage. Long sections of Highway 1 have neither. Even low band gets spotty along there. Big chunks of far Northern California are the same.

If you are in Southern California and want to listen to the local stuff, you are probably right. I still think there's going to be a fair amount of low band action in the state for many years to come.

I'm in Riverside County and enjoy listening to San Bernardino County Fire department. But I also enjoy listening to CHP. They get a lot of pursuits that come into their area. But I've noticed that they have dead spots on the East End of Big Bear Valley and going up state route 38. I have a friend that has a repeater on Keller Peak and he just cannot get it to drop down to Highway 38 in most places. CHP is on the same site and has the same problem. Low band is supposed to be the best from what I've studied as far as mountainous terrain. But I guess their equipment is old and unreliable. I'm noticing lately that they're spending a lot of time on Channel 2 which is what they call going direct or simplex. We had the same thing on our Rovers at LAPD. In our case we would go to the station channel which gave us a choice of being repeater or simplex. Most the time we were simplex. But I'm getting off topic. If Northern California is going to be void of coverage what are they going to do? If the cellular system is weak up there as well are they going to use the various Sheriff's departments for dispatch?

 

[mmckenna]

If Northern California is going to be void of coverage what are they going to do? If the cellular system is weak up there as well are they going to use the various Sheriff's departments for dispatch?

I don't know for sure.
I do know that CRIS has been working with Northern California APCO to coordinate VHF pairs for CRIS. Some VHF sites already exist along the Eastern Sierra and at least a few sites in far Northeast California. That should help quite a bit.

But there's sections of the northwest part of the state that may be more of a challenge. Highway 3 pops to mind, plus a lot of the secondary roads that I think CHP patrols. My experience with AT&T/FirstNet up there is that it can be a challenge. If they are using Verizon, it's probably better. Maybe dual SIM devices? But I don't think it's 100% coverage. I'd bet they are using the High Power User Equipment (HPUE) and getting better coverage than us chumps. Maybe they will rely on cellular as primary and just use VHF fill in sites where the cellular isn't working.

Makes me wonder about the expansive CalTrans 800MHz conventional system and if/how that'll get rolled in. I believe CalTrans on CRIS was mentioned.

I am often working south of Big Sur, and there's no reliable cellular along many parts of that road. CHP reports challenges with low band often. VHF/UHF isn't much better. Just too rugged. I'd be interested to see how they'll address that. Adding more cell sites along that section of highway 1 won't be easy. Land owners don't want towers their property. The few high accessible mountains are pretty well controlled and a few of them have extremely tight access restrictions. Add in lack of utility power, and it gets even more challenging.

Carriers are playing with cellular to satellite, so maybe that's in the works. Elon/StarLink? Who knows what magic will happen.

But they do have enough radios in the cars to program in all the local agencies, so maybe thats part of the answer.

Our new chief is an ex-CHP guy. Not hearing much love from him for the low band systems. They are finicky and have their issues.

 

[Ravenfalls]

Antenna wise. If it will cover 6m Amatuer. Then the antenna will resell

 

[tsalmrsystemtech]

Maybe every public safety CHP cruiser might have those starlink dishes on their roofs eventually. They do have waterproof kits for roof mounts now and will have satellite high speed data at all times no matter where and what. I have seen some companies make some really great heavy duty plastics kits for RV van applications and off road vehicles. They can run their LMR and WiFI and at all times no matter where they are.

But those are light years away but not too far off into the distance. I think StarLink is the major game changer for everything in the world to have high speed internet and WiFi no matter where you are in the world. Sea and Land. All major cruise ships have StarLink now. Multiple dishes on one cruise ship. I have seen some pictures of like 10 dishes all lined up in a roll on their high decks which feed the whole ship internet data.

They are all low orbit now not like the old days with latency issues with Hughes satelitte internet. Plus all those Star Link Satellites use laser technology for all of them to talk to each other at laser beam light speed in space. Amazing for sure.

 

[prcguy]

I'm in Riverside County and enjoy listening to San Bernardino County Fire department. But I also enjoy listening to CHP. They get a lot of pursuits that come into their area. But I've noticed that they have dead spots on the East End of Big Bear Valley and going up state route 38. I have a friend that has a repeater on Keller Peak and he just cannot get it to drop down to Highway 38 in most places. CHP is on the same site and has the same problem. Low band is supposed to be the best from what I've studied as far as mountainous terrain. But I guess their equipment is old and unreliable. I'm noticing lately that they're spending a lot of time on Channel 2 which is what they call going direct or simplex. We had the same thing on our Rovers at LAPD. In our case we would go to the station channel which gave us a choice of being repeater or simplex. Most the time we were simplex. But I'm getting off topic. If Northern California is going to be void of coverage what are they going to do? If the cellular system is weak up there as well are they going to use the various Sheriff's departments for dispatch?

I spend a lot of time in Big Bear, what frequency are you calling ch 2?

 

[HappilyRetired]

I spend a lot of time in Big Bear, what frequency are you calling ch 2?

San Bernardino CHP channel 2 is 39.26. This is the output of the repeater frequency. As you may or may not know, their microphone has a two position switch. When you press the top of the PTT button you're on the repeater. When you press on the bottom of the PTT button you're on the output of the repeater, or direct. They refer to that as channel 2. This is not exclusive to San Bernardino CHP. It's all stations and all divisions. Specific to San Bernardino, they have one repeater that regularly blows squelch. It locks up and gets itself into a loop. The units there use Channel 2 which can be directly monitored by CHP dispatch.

My wife and I now own a cabin up in the mountains and I can actually hear units on their LAPD Rovers all the way out in Pacific division on direct. Each station has their own station repeater. These are often overlooked I think by scanner listeners. They are full repeaters and intended to be used for self-dispatch. Most of the time we would communicate on direct rather than through the repeater. Rover to Rover.

After talking at length with CHP officers they have the same thing. If you listen to CHP a lot you'll hear the dispatcher reply to a unit occasionally with the statement "You're on Channel 2, but I copy you're code 4," or whatever.

 

[prcguy]

San Bernardino CHP channel 2 is 39.26. This is the output of the repeater frequency. As you may or may not know, their microphone has a two position switch. When you press the top of the PTT button you're on the repeater. When you press on the bottom of the PTT button you're on the output of the repeater, or direct. They refer to that as channel 2. This is not exclusive to San Bernardino CHP. It's all stations and all divisions. Specific to San Bernardino, they have one repeater that regularly blows squelch. It locks up and gets itself into a loop. The units there use Channel 2 which can be directly monitored by CHP dispatch.

My wife and I now own a cabin up in the mountains and I can actually hear units on their LAPD Rovers all the way out in Pacific division on direct. Each station has their own station repeater. These are often overlooked I think by scanner listeners. They are full repeaters and intended to be used for self-dispatch. Most of the time we would communicate on direct rather than through the repeater. Rover to Rover.

After talking at length with CHP officers they have the same thing. If you listen to CHP a lot you'll hear the dispatcher reply to a unit occasionally with the statement "You're on Channel 2, but I copy you're code 4," or whatever.

I monitor CHP in Big Bear with a Discone that has a longer whip tuned to about 40MHz. Reception is ok but not great and I’m upgrading soon to an actual CHP WB mobile whip on the roof over some ground radials.

Thinking about the vastness of CA and the varying topography from deserts to mountains and long coastal areas blocked by mountains right up to the water I can’t imagine how complex and costly it would be to transition CHP to a trunking system that would adequately serve them. I agree CHP will have to be on VHF lo in some areas for a long time.

 

[HappilyRetired]

I don't know for sure.
I do know that CRIS has been working with Northern California APCO to coordinate VHF pairs for CRIS. Some VHF sites already exist along the Eastern Sierra and at least a few sites in far Northeast California. That should help quite a bit.

But there's sections of the northwest part of the state that may be more of a challenge. Highway 3 pops to mind, plus a lot of the secondary roads that I think CHP patrols. My experience with AT&T/FirstNet up there is that it can be a challenge. If they are using Verizon, it's probably better. Maybe dual SIM devices? But I don't think it's 100% coverage. I'd bet they are using the High Power User Equipment (HPUE) and getting better coverage than us chumps. Maybe they will rely on cellular as primary and just use VHF fill in sites where the cellular isn't working.

Makes me wonder about the expansive CalTrans 800MHz conventional system and if/how that'll get rolled in. I believe CalTrans on CRIS was mentioned.

I am often working south of Big Sur, and there's no reliable cellular along many parts of that road. CHP reports challenges with low band often. VHF/UHF isn't much better. Just too rugged. I'd be interested to see how they'll address that. Adding more cell sites along that section of highway 1 won't be easy. Land owners don't want towers their property. The few high accessible mountains are pretty well controlled and a few of them have extremely tight access restrictions. Add in lack of utility power, and it gets even more challenging.

...

Our new chief is an ex-CHP guy. Not hearing much love from him for the low band systems. They are finicky and have their issues.

I have been following you and have much respect for your knowledge. The fact that you're not certain about Northern California tells me as a relative newcomer I don't know any better.

I really haven't spent any time up in Northern California but I did look up California Highway 3 and see how it goes through the national forest. From what I know, low band is ideal for that environment because it bounces off of the mountain walls. The downside is high noise levels and when the skip is in it makes it very difficult for the dispatchers to maintain communications with their actual units. I can't imagine how many sites they would have to put in to cover that pass. I call it a pass but it looks like it's a hundred miles long. Overall, Northern California seems to be a great challenge. I went to repeaterbook and tried to look up repeater sites and see that they have very few north of Sacramento. That also includes those on the Oregon side. I can't see how they're going to do 800 MHz trunking.

But then again I really don't know what I'm talking about. It seems that Southern California as well as the Bay Area communities up north have it all worked out. My wife and I do a bit of traveling and listen to CHP for traffic reports. Once they go to a trunked encrypted system that'll be the end of that. What are newspapers and TV stations going to do? I know when I watch the news on KTLA they show a map every morning where incidents are located. Will we see CHP give them a special radio and a pinky swear that what they hear they won't repeat? You know that if they hear it they're going to race to the scene of an incident.

I understand logistically how trunking is advantageous. Especially if one loops in Caltrans. That would mean that CHP could talk directly to Caltrans. In talking with some of the Big Bear CHP officers they tell me a couple of their cars actually have/had 800 MHz radios in them and can/could come up on either the San Bernardino County Sheriff's system or Caltrans directly. But those are the oddities. As I previously posted, the east end of Big Bear Valley seems to have poor coverage as well as areas on the northern face of Big Bear valley. They're in the shadow I guess of the mountain. I know that when we drive up there most of the way up State Route 330 is dead to cell phones. It's no better on the 18 or the 38. So then how does the sheriff's department and fire department maintain coverage? I actually know the answer to that because I've seen the different sites they have from Strawberry Peak over to Heaps Peak and over to Bertha Peak, Onyx Summit and Keller Peak. That seems like an awful lot of infrastructure just to provide, what is it a 95% coverage standard?

It would seem to me that rather than reinvent the wheel, CHP would lease space on existing government systems. It's my understanding that the California Department of Homeland Security has issued a dictate that any County that wants Federal money that's given directly to the states has to go encrypted. That's a side issue and I know encryption isn't based on frequency. Will CHP partner with various Sheriff's departments regardless of what frequency they are on? That seems to make the most sense rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. Plus, a cellular interface. Or would they simply put remote receivers/repeaters on cellular towers?

 

[HappilyRetired]

I monitor CHP in Big Bear with a Discone that has a longer whip tuned to about 40MHz. Reception is ok but not great and I’m upgrading soon to an actual CHP WB mobile whip on the roof over some ground radials.

Thinking about the vastness of CA and the varying topography from deserts to mountains and long coastal areas blocked by mountains right up to the water I can’t imagine how complex and costly it would be to transition CHP to a trunking system that would adequately serve them. I agree CHP will have to be on VHF lo in some areas for a long time.

My wife and I bought a cabin up in Running Springs. Big Bear was too damn expensive. Running Springs seems like an ideal spot because I can hit a lot of repeaters on amateur radio from there whereas in Big Bear it was like a dead zone. I can hear LAPD Pacific Division and every other division like I was right there using a commercial antenna tuned at 490 MHz. It lets me listen to LAPD, LASD and LA County Fire as well. For now anyway. I'm not going to invest a whole lot of money in technology that's about to change. As I understand it the fire departments will stay relatively unencrypted except for EMS. I really don't care about patient information anyway. Just like our home in Riverside County at the top of a hill covered by yellow grass all the way around, all I care about is being able to listen to the fire department when a brush fire breaks out to know what's really going on. As for CHP, I purchased a Child's low band antenna. It stands about 12 ft tall and it really does a fantastic job currently on CHP. Once they go trunking maybe I'll be able to cut it down for 6 meters. I have decided that I will build a battery backup system with a solar power and stream from Running Springs. Trying to get a signal into my office in San Bernardino with the cement walls is just a waste of money. I asked the building manager if I could put a couple antennas on the roof and I got a firm no! The little whip that comes with the 996P2s doesn't cut it.

 

[HappilyRetired]

San Bernardino Sheriff in the early 90s left their old VHF system because they had 3 repeater and/or fixed base channels and a few direct channels. They simply needed more but nothing was available in the VHF range.

San Bernardino County has grown exponentially since the 1990s. Population wise. It's like the Inland Empire version of downtown Los Angeles just as Bakersfield is the San Joaquin Valley equivalent of downtown Los Angeles.

 

[AM909]

Mapping out what boring old Caltrans did with their roadside fill-ins can be interesting. I see they also have a small 5-freq P25P2 trunk on Santiago for SoCal (D7/8/12). Stockton (D10) also has what appears to be some 700 conventional.

 

[HappilyRetired]

Mapping out what boring old Caltrans did with their roadside fill-ins can be interesting. I see they also have a small 5-freq P25P2 trunk on Santiago for SoCal (D7/8/12). Stockton (D10) also has what appears to be some 700 conventional.

The San Bernardino Mountains have I believe five zones if not more. They are 800 MHz conventional repeaters. It only makes sense to incorporate them into the TRS. That will give them the ability to communicate with CHP or the Sheriff's/Fire Department and vice versa.

 

[techman210]

There are no conventional 800 MHz repeaters for the county in the mountains east of interstate 15. The ITAC/8TAC repeaters were removed long ago.

I’ve heard there is a plan to establish a simulcast group of conventional repeaters in the near future.

One of the problems with California Highway patrol in the Big Bear area is probably about five years ago, their tower on Keller Peak fell down because water got into the tower legs and nobody was checking that the weep holes were open, and the water froze and the tower fell in a storm. CHP coverage is pretty bad on the south side of the lake.

After that, the technicians made an ad hoc structure up there which is much shorter. There is a plan to replace the tower with a much larger one that was approved by the forest service, but so far it hasn’t happened probably due to funds.