City of Long Beach: 700 MHz Project 25 TRS

[Thunderbolt]

I see that the city of Long Beach, has applied to the FCC to erect a 700 MHz Project 25 TRS. In the summary section, they mention that the system is to "Provide emergency communications to local and federal agencies." The requested frequencies are:

771.45625
771.46875
771.83125
771.84375
772.08125
772.09375

Does anyone know when this system should be on the air? Also, will this be a stand alone system, or part of a regional network?

Yours truly,

Ron

 

[LAflyer]

I believe it’s a system for the Port of Long Beach. They have a pending RFP for “Trunked and Encrypted P25 700/800MHz Digital Radio Communication System”

http://www.polb.com/civica/inc/displayblobpdf2.asp?BlobID=7865

 

[LAflyer]

Follow up to this -

Motorola was awarded a contract for the trunked P25 system including 6 dispatch consoles and 35-portable radios.
From what I understand this system will (at least initially) be an internal system for the Port of Long Beach operations and security, and not feature any direct connections with Long Beach PD or FD except via the dispatcher at the cities joint communications center.

No operational time frame mentioned.

 

[Markb]

FWIW, this new system is broadcasting a control channel on 771.45625. Don't know how long this has been up, just noticed it on Thursday.
No voice activity yet.


Data from Unitrunker:
WACN - BEE00
SysID - 469
Channel Access - TDMA
Modulation - C4FM (at the moment, I've also seen CPQSK today)
NAC - 461
Peers/Neighbors - None

 

[LAflyer]

Yeah just gave a listen up in West LA and can indeed hear the data. Signal is 90%+, with site ID of 001.

I'll keep and eye on it, and also get it in DB in the coming week.

 

[LAflyer]

Added to Db.

Port of Long Beach Trunking System, Long Beach / Signal Hill, California - Scanner Frequencies

Once system goes live and people become aware of TGs, please submit them.

 

[MtnBiker2005]

Update:
Checked the site with Pro96com today from my area in San Diego County.
The site was in "Site Trunking" mode on Saturday(Aug 13, 2011).

Here is the list for alternate control channel.
"01-1512","c",771.45625 - primary control channel
"01-1514","a",771.46875 - alternate control
"01-1572","a",771.83125 - alternate control
"01-1574","a",771.84375 - alternate control

 

[Mick]

Excellent post Brian!

I saw this at Port of Long Beach Trunking System, Long Beach / Signal Hill, California - Scanner Frequencies

"Some talkgroups on this system are using Project 25 Phase II TDMA modulation which cannot be monitored by any scanner. Please visit the RR Wiki Project 25 page for additional information."

As I understand it the PSR 800 can hear them.

Update:
Checked the site with Pro96com today from my area in San Diego County.
The site was in "Site Trunking" mode on Saturday(Aug 13, 2011).

Here is the list for alternate control channel.
"01-1512","c",771.45625 - primary control channel
"01-1514","a",771.46875 - alternate control
"01-1572","a",771.83125 - alternate control
"01-1574","a",771.84375 - alternate control

 

[GTR8000]

"Some talkgroups on this system are using Project 25 Phase II TDMA modulation which cannot be monitored by any scanner. Please visit the RR Wiki Project 25 page for additional information."

As I understand it the PSR 800 can hear them.

The wording is misleading. The PSR-800 can currently monitor Motorola X2-TDMA, it has not been confirmed whether it can monitor the final Phase II standard. The information on the P25 wiki page is out of date also, the Phase II standard was approved last November and Motorola has already begun shipping Phase II systems.

So, in a nutshell:

Motorola X2-TDMA = Motorola's proprietary flavor of TDMA, pre-final Phase II standard. The PSR-800 can monitor X2-TDMA

P25 Phase II TDMA = The official APCO Project 25 standard that was published in November of 2010. Systems have just begun to ship in August of 2011. The PSR-800 has not yet been confirmed to monitor Phase II, and may require a firmware update.


EDIT: I've updated the P25 wiki page so as to avoid further confusion and speculation.

 

[Markb]

Unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen any evidence of X2 or phase 2 TDMA on this system so far. I've run Unitrunker on it quite a bit over the last couple of weeks. Are all 700 systems (from this point out, at least) assumed to be X2 or Phase 2?

 

[jlanfn]

Unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen any evidence of X2 or phase 2 TDMA on this system so far. I've run Unitrunker on it quite a bit over the last couple of weeks. Are all 700 systems (from this point out, at least) assumed to be X2 or Phase 2?

I've run Uniterunker quite a bit on this system, which is 700 MHz. All of the traffic I have heard has been Phase 1 FDMA, even though Unitrunker's "Info" tab says it is TDMA.

Maybe it's a bug in Unitrunker that is confusing people.

 

[K6CDO]

Unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen any evidence of X2 or phase 2 TDMA on this system so far. I've run Unitrunker on it quite a bit over the last couple of weeks. Are all 700 systems (from this point out, at least) assumed to be X2 or Phase 2?

No, one should not presume that all 700 MHz systems from this point forward will be Phase 2. At the current time FCC regulations require that all 700 MHz systems migrate to one voice path per 6.25 kHz efficiency (in other words, Phase 2) by 1-1-2017. Petitions to extend that deadline are starting to stack up at the FCC.

 

[LAflyer]

You guys are right, we wont know for sure till the system is operational. (same with the new LAWA one).

The RFP documents from Motorola for the POLB mention "Slotted TDMA". Whatever that might mean.

 

[GTR8000]

The RFP documents from Motorola for the POLB mention "Slotted TDMA". Whatever that might mean.

"Slotted TDMA" = Phase II TDMA

In (sort of) plain English: Phase II TDMA takes a 12.5 kHz wide frequency that would normally be a single voice channel on a Phase I FDMA system, and chops it in half time-wise so you squeeze two voice channels within that same 12.5 kHz bandwidth. Also known as "6.25 kHz efficiency". It's not truly using a 6.25 kHz wide frequency, but because it allows for two voice channels within that 12.5 kHz frequency and thus has the same effect as having two 6.25 kHz frequencies in operation, it will meet the future FCC mandate.

Confused yet? :twisted:

 

[SCPD]

Maybe it's a bug in Unitrunker that is confusing people.

It's reporting TDMA because it has seen TDMA specific behavior on the control channel. In other words, it is, at a minimum, TDMA capable. All P25 TDMA systems can fall back to FDMA. At some point you could see TDMA traffic.

 

[inigo88]

No, one should not presume that all 700 MHz systems from this point forward will be Phase 2. At the current time FCC regulations require that all 700 MHz systems migrate to one voice path per 6.25 kHz efficiency (in other words, Phase 2) by 1-1-2017. Petitions to extend that deadline are starting to stack up at the FCC.

Also last I'd heard (and I may have old info) APCO P25 Phase II still wasn't finalized, so the only TDMA capable P25 systems online so far are Motorola's proprietary "X2-TDMA" protocol. Without a set standard, these systems will be about as interoperable as MotoTRBO. I tried to look it up and there are some threads saying "Yes it's out" and some threads saying "No that's just Motorola's TDMA-X" haha.

 

[K6CDO]

Also last I'd heard (and I may have old info) APCO P25 Phase II still wasn't finalized, so the only TDMA capable P25 systems online so far are Motorola's proprietary "X2-TDMA" protocol. Without a set standard, these systems will be about as interoperable as MotoTRBO. I tried to look it up and there are some threads saying "Yes it's out" and some threads saying "No that's just Motorola's TDMA-X" haha.

The Phase II standard has been finalized, and some real Phase II product is starting to ship with more manufacturers shipping late this year.

 

[inigo88]

The Phase II standard has been finalized, and some real Phase II product is starting to ship with more manufacturers shipping late this year.

Good to know, thanks! Here's to holding out for GRE to make a TDMA firmware upgrade for the PSR-500 (yeah right).

 

[GTR8000]

Good to know, thanks! Here's to holding out for GRE to make a TDMA firmware upgrade for the PSR-500 (yeah right).

All the firmware in the world won't make a bit of difference, as it lacks the physical hardware to decode TDMA. The only scanner currently on the market with the requisite hardware to decode any form of TDMA is the PSR-800. That model has been confirmed to decode X2-TDMA, the jury is still out on whether it will decode Phase II TDMA with or without a firmware update, pending GRE being able to test it against a live Phase II system.

 

[LAflyer]

Anyone hear a peep or note any testing activity on this system?