Cleveland Area Possible New Unknown System

[Jphila20]

Does anyone know if new task force is in the Cleveland area? I know that MARCS radio have been programed with the GCRCN so users can talk on either system. I also know that the RID's carry over from one system to another.

Some of the known RID's that have shown up on both systems are doing so rarely on either system. The RID's are gone for days at a time.

So, can Motorola Radios have more that two systems programed into them?

If there is a new unknown system any suggestions on how to search for it? I did a Cleveland search on the FCC and didn't find anything. Not real familiar with the search site.

I'm mostly using Unitrunker for listening and realize that encrypted traffic is muted. I did look at the Marshall TG's and Unitrunker doesn't show them in use.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[rcid1971]

So, can Motorola Radios have more that two systems programed into them?

Newer models allow for different zones which can be entirely different systems. In Cuyahoga County we see a few communities like Broadview Hts and Garfield Hts that have radios that operate on both GCRCN & MARCS.

I believe some federal agencies are doing the same.

Interesting notion that perhaps there's an unknown system in the mix. Seems like a lot to build out monetarily. Is it conceivable that they're using federal simplex channels? I don't really monitor those to snag UIDs.

 

[wa8pyr]

So, can Motorola Radios have more that two systems programed into them?

All radios, no matter the manufacturer, can have many different trunked systems programmed into them. My radio at work has six.

 

[rcid1971]

All radios, no matter the manufacturer, can have many different trunked systems programmed into them. My radio at work has six.

Our Taits, only the 9100 & 9400 are capable of multiple systems, "all" seems like a pretty ambitious claim?

 

[wa8pyr]

Our Taits, only the 9100 & 9400 are capable of multiple systems, "all" seems like a pretty ambitious claim?

Perhaps some of your radios are only programmed to use a single system? Anything approved for use on Ohio MARCS is capable of multiple systems (as is anything else I've looked at even if it isn't approved for use on MARCS). Unless they're criminally unprepared, why would a public safety agency want a radio that's only capable of one system?

Maybe there are some radios out there which only accept a single system, but they would have to be pretty old (like trunking Maxtrac era); everything I've used since before P25 was capable of at least four systems.

 

[rcid1971]

Unless they're criminally unprepared, why would a public safety agency want a radio that's only capable of one system?

Criminally unprepared (love it) seems to be most MARCS customers that have seemingly abandoned all backups.

 

[wa8pyr]

Criminally unprepared (love it) seems to be most MARCS customers that have seemingly abandoned all backups.

MARCS has been pushing to be the radio system for the entire state, and for awhile at least they suggested that agencies could dump their old systems as a cost-saving measure. Unfortunately, there hasn't been a lot of preparing for the event of a system crash (which has occasionally happened), and as you noted, most agencies seem to be dumping their old systems left and right.

MARCS is a very reliable system, but there have been crashes in the past which lasted an hour or more, and many agencies were utterly unprepared, suffering from a lack of a viable backup, or lousy training, or both.

 

[amcferrin90]

The radio IDs for public safety are usually coordinated between agencies using the MARCS ID plan. A very large majority of public safety has access to MARCS for interoperability anyways. Here's information about radio ID's: Ohio SIEC Radio ID

 

[Jphila20]

The radio IDs for public safety are usually coordinated between agencies using the MARCS ID plan. A very large majority of public safety has access to MARCS for interoperability anyways. Here's information about radio ID's: Ohio SIEC Radio ID

Do you know if the Greater Cleveland Radio Communication Network has the same type of radio ID number plan? Any idea where I would look for it?

Thanks for the attachment.

 

[wa8pyr]

Do you know if the Greater Cleveland Radio Communication Network has the same type of radio ID number plan? Any idea where I would look for it?

The Wiki is your friend. Learn it; know it; live it.

What has been identified for GCRCN is here: Greater Cleveland Radio Communications Network Radio IDs - The RadioReference Wiki

The rest of Cuyahoga County is here: Ohio MARCS IP: Cuyahoga County Radio IDs - The RadioReference Wiki

I seriously doubt that Cleveland has made their official plan public, but as @amcferrin90 noted, IDs are coordinated statewide and mostly follow the same general plan (ie, 18xxxxx).

 

[Jphila20]

The Wiki is your friend. Learn it; know it; live it.

What has been identified for GCRCN is here: Greater Cleveland Radio Communications Network Radio IDs - The RadioReference Wiki

The rest of Cuyahoga County is here: Ohio MARCS IP: Cuyahoga County Radio IDs - The RadioReference Wiki

I seriously doubt that Cleveland has made their official plan public, but as @amcferrin90 noted, IDs are coordinated statewide and mostly follow the same general plan (ie, 18xxxxx).

Thanks!

 

[wd8chl]

The hurdles an agency encounters when putting multiple trunked systems in their dept's radios start first with the money. As far as I know, all trunked PS systems will charge agencies outside of their immediate purview a usage fee of some sort. MARCS charges all non-state agencies a fee per radio per month. This is the first stumbling block-many don't want to pay that. Another is programming. Even if you do agree with the charges, for each system, there is a hardware key that has to be plugged into the PC that is doing the programming. If you have 2 systems, you'll have two keys. If you have three systems, you have 3 keys. You can see how that could get unwieldy very fast. Then getting all those keys in the same place at the same time can be tricky too, since not everyone has every key.
Then there are the new Phase 2 systems going in. You'll need to have the option in your radio to do that as well, and many don't want to pay for that either, just to talk to one or two other agencies.
Sorry, IMO, interoperability has gone out the window with these trunked systems.

 

[N8WCP]

Sorry, IMO, interoperability has gone out the window with these trunked systems.

Lack of interoperability has never been a technical issue, it's caused by individuals unwilling to work with others to resolve a problem. There's a solution to tie all these systems together if the system owners wanted to.

 

[rcid1971]

Lack of interoperability has never been a technical issue, it's caused by individuals unwilling to work with others to resolve a problem. There's a solution to tie all these systems together if the system owners wanted to.

Trunked systems have perhaps made it worse.
LEERN and Intercity analog channels were sometimes more convenient as channels 3 or 4 in a law enforcement agency's radio.
Now agencies are dependent on patching, switching zones, then dialing over 10 channels deep.

 

[N8WCP]

Now agencies are dependent on patching, switching zones, then dialing over 10 channels deep.

Talkgroup creep is a problem. A well though out radio template can help reduce the zone changes by placing the often used I/O TG's in the primary or common zone.

 

[KE4ZNR]

So I hope I can give a different perspective on TRS and interop from here in NC...I help maintain/manage a local city/county TRS and have not only my primary radio system in my portable radios but also VIPER (statewide interop system) as well as 2 other mutual aid systems....some more upfront info: here in Central NC Motorola is the big vendor for local TRS...we have a few Harris core systems but they are few and far between...and I am sure @wa8pyr can verify my credentials and "street cred"...so with that knowledge some thoughts:

The hurdles an agency encounters when putting multiple trunked systems in their dept's radios start first with the money. As far as I know, all trunked PS systems will charge agencies outside of their immediate purview a usage fee of some sort. MARCS charges all non-state agencies a fee per radio per month. This is the first stumbling block-many don't want to pay that.

Here in NC the State of NC does not charge for access to the statewide VIPER system (P25 Moto Core). There are a few ground rules (must be a gov entity, must follow basic programming rules, and must have a radio that is TDMA capable/ready by 2025). VIPER does plan to go Phase 2 TDMA by 2025 so you must have a TDMA ready radio but there is an approved list of vendors so Moto is not the only option. We are considered a "Secondary" user of VIPER as we have our own city/county TRS as our Primary Comms source but are not charged for our TGs on VIPER nor charged access fees.

Another is programming. Even if you do agree with the charges, for each system, there is a hardware key that has to be plugged into the PC that is doing the programming. If you have 2 systems, you'll have two keys. If you have three systems, you have 3 keys. You can see how that could get unwieldy very fast. Then getting all those keys in the same place at the same time can be tricky too, since not everyone has every key.

Motorola calls their hardware system keys "Advanced System Keys" or ASKs. A little secret: with a little coordination you can have more than one TRS on an ASK! I have our system, the VIPER system and 2 other systems on an ASK. So that means I only have to have 1 ASK dongle plugged into my laptop!
Easy-Peasey!

Then there are the new Phase 2 systems going in. You'll need to have the option in your radio to do that as well, and many don't want to pay for that either, just to talk to one or two other agencies.

Here in NC VIPER has plans to go Phase 2 TDMA by 2025. They have to in order to have the capacity to handle present and future system radio traffic. With only so much 800 & 700Mhz spectrum able to be assigned to 240+ sites you have to use that spectrum in the most efficient manner possible. Phase 2 TDMA is the solution. Again, VIPER is not charging users to access the system but only asking that the radios being used on the system are TDMA ready.

Sorry, IMO, interoperability has gone out the window with these trunked systems.

This is just flat out wrong. Again using VIPER as an example. VIPER stands for "Voice INTEROPERABILITY Plan for Emergency Responders". It is there in the title. There is a statewide TG numbering plan on VIPER, a statewide Radio ID numbering plan on VIPER, and even a statewide encryption plan on VIPER. The system has 80!!!! statewide event talkgroups that can be assigned from the mountains to the coast. The system has 36!!! DPR (Disaster Preparedness Region) talkgroups that can be assigned in times of need (flooding, tornado, hurricane). The NC based VIPER system is linked to similar systems in Virginia and South Carolina for cross state mutual aid.

Now: Where I will agree is where others have said folks get in the way. In our profession we always say that "the radio systems can do pretty much anything you need them to do technology wise it is always the humans that get in the way". This is true. We humans have a tendency to get in the way of the technology. Coordination is the key: get folks to agree on setting basic standards then work with everyone to make sure those standards are followed.

I know my experiences from here in NC may differ tremendously from those in Ohio and my opinions above are just my feeble ramblings as a veteran radio system engineer but hopefully they offer some clarity into the issues brought up.

All the best to all!

 

[wa8pyr]

The hurdles an agency encounters when putting multiple trunked systems in their dept's radios start first with the money. As far as I know, all trunked PS systems will charge agencies outside of their immediate purview a usage fee of some sort.

None of the systems in Ohio that I'm familiar with charge neighboring agencies a user fee for interoperability only (including MARCS), which would totally defeat the purpose. For day to day "dispatch" use they would get charged, however.

MARCS charges all non-state agencies a fee per radio per month.

All day-to-day users on MARCS are charged a user fee, including state agencies. At the state level it's just numbers being moved around electronically, but they do all pay.

Now: Where I will agree is where others have said folks get in the way. In our profession we always say that "the radio systems can do pretty much anything you need them to do technology wise it is always the humans that get in the way". This is true. We humans have a tendency to get in the way of the technology. Coordination is the key: get folks to agree on setting basic standards then work with everyone to make sure those standards are followed.

MARCS is the same way as NC, with standardized ID and talkgroup plans, standard interop talkgroups and so on. The problem with all of it is getting everybody to play ball. We can plan our brains out, come up with all sorts of interoperability schemes and so on, but if the users don't actually practice and use it, it might as well not be there.

On our old EDACS system, we had everybody in the county on it, but there were only three common talkgroups between all disciplines (with one additional between fire and police), so it was effectively three different systems in one. We're way ahead of where we were then but the mindset persists; we have a heck of a time prying some agencies away from their dispatch talkgroups.

 

[wd8chl]

The sad part of all this is Lorain county had near perfect interoperability. Almost everyone was on VHF. All you had to do was put the frequencies in your radios, then just train your people how to use it. And it didn't cost anyone anything extra. Now they're spending millions, and can't talk anymore.
Many other counties were the same way.

 

[Jphila20]

Almost like spoiled kids all wanting there own thing. Unfortunately it's the Officers out doing their job who suffer.