Cleveland National Forest (CNF) - Air Tactics

Status
Not open for further replies.

Markb

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 21, 2002
Messages
1,167
Location
Planet Earth
I just picked up one of the new Uniden Scanners the other day and am pretty happy with it overall, something I noticed when I added CNF to my favorites list is that there is a listing coming from the RRDB showing 2 "AIR TAC" freqs for the forest:

166.2500 - Primary
164.5000 - Secondary

Neither of these jive with the info I have and on top of that I am getting the IFB feed for 570 AM KLAC (confirmed through SoCalFedCom) on this supposed primary freq.

Anybody have some insight on this?

Thanks,
Mark
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
The frequencies you show were valid as of the 2013 season. If they have changed, there isn't any way for me to check it as the 2014 maps are not available yet, to me at least. What information do you have that indicates other frequencies have been assigned?
 
Last edited:

Markb

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 21, 2002
Messages
1,167
Location
Planet Earth
The frequencies you show were valid as of the 2013 season. If they have changed, there isn't any way for me to check it as the 2014 maps are not available yet, to me at least. What information do you have that indicates other frequencies have been assigned?
I don't have any info that things have changed. I was only wondering if those frequencies are indeed correct due to the fact that I am receiving this IFB, seems like it would create a headache for the tanker folks.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk
 

Markb

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 21, 2002
Messages
1,167
Location
Planet Earth
I thought all CA was under the CA Wildland Fire Coord Group Safety Alert that was published in March of 2012.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/.../safe/cwcg-safety-alert-frequencies.pdf

The So Cal frequencies would be Region 5 A/G 4 (169.1125)
and 7 (168.4875). That's what is shown for CNF in my info.

Or am I talking something else?

Steve
Hi Steve.

Those are air to ground freqs that you are referring to. I am talking about the air tactics freqs (air-to-air).

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
I don't have any info that things have changed. I was only wondering if those frequencies are indeed correct due to the fact that I am receiving this IFB, seems like it would create a headache for the tanker folks.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk
The abbreviation monster has struck again. What does IFB stand for? If there is some type of patch or link on 166.2500 for a commercial radio station, this frequency is not allocated for such. Just because its on that website doesn't mean it is official. A quick look at the site shows a few errors. I'm thinking it is some type of intermod or other interference that is affecting scanners, such as a birdie or similar. Commercial grade radios are probably not picking this up.

Sometimes the RF environment at electronic sites is very messy and powerful transmitters located next to very sensitive land mobile radio base stations or repeaters will bleed over. However, there would not be any base stations on this frequency. If that AM/FM station is located on Santiago it might be sending out a harmonic that covers a wide area. There are a couple of mountain tops in the south end of San Diego County that might be responsible as well.

The 2013 information I mentioned is agency official. If there is interference from a radio station broadcasting there would have been a safety gram or a frequency change.

This is my best guess as to why you are picking up this radios station's transmission on the primary air to air FM tactics. II'm located about 400 miles away and haven't been to San Diego for more than 10 years. If I drove around San Diego with my mobile on the frequency I could likely be able to distinguish if this is a harmonic or other type of interference.
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
10,666
Location
Taxachusetts
Interruptible foldback - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually 166.2500 is allocated for many users outside of the Federal Government. I do know it was for year a Broadcast Aux Freq, typically used as an IFB

Police Call 1993 say BA, PF and TVA
A quick FCC search (2014) shows RP (Former BA) and PW (Local Governments)

The abbreviation monster has struck again. What does IFB stand for? If there is some type of patch or link on 166.2500 for a commercial radio station, this frequency is not allocated for such. Just because its on that website doesn't mean it is official. A quick look at the site shows a few errors. I'm thinking it is some type of intermod or other interference that is affecting scanners, such as a birdie or similar. Commercial grade radios are probably not picking this up.

Sometimes the RF environment at electronic sites is very messy and powerful transmitters located next to very sensitive land mobile radio base stations or repeaters will bleed over. However, there would not be any base stations on this frequency. If that AM/FM station is located on Santiago it might be sending out a harmonic that covers a wide area. There are a couple of mountain tops in the south end of San Diego County that might be responsible as well.

The 2013 information I mentioned is agency official. If there is interference from a radio station broadcasting there would have been a safety gram or a frequency change.

This is my best guess as to why you are picking up this radios station's transmission on the primary air to air FM tactics. II'm located about 400 miles away and haven't been to San Diego for more than 10 years. If I drove around San Diego with my mobile on the frequency I could likely be able to distinguish if this is a harmonic or other type of interference.
 

Markb

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 21, 2002
Messages
1,167
Location
Planet Earth
I tried this frequency in several radios including a Motorola XTS2500 and a BK GPH-CMD and I am receiving clearly on all I have tried. To me, they don't sound like they are bleeding over.
I have heard it in 2 different locations about 20 miles apart, both on the northern edge of CNF. Probably not an issue in SD County, unless you are flying at 5 or 6,000 feet.
I am pretty sure the transmitter is somewhere up in the LA area, as the reception in Corona is poorer than in Orange County.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
10,666
Location
Taxachusetts
Site / Frequency / Market Search Results

I tried this frequency in several radios including a Motorola XTS2500 and a BK GPH-CMD and I am receiving clearly on all I have tried. To me, they don't sound like they are bleeding over.
I have heard it in 2 different locations about 20 miles apart, both on the northern edge of CNF. Probably not an issue in SD County, unless you are flying at 5 or 6,000 feet.
I am pretty sure the transmitter is somewhere up in the LA area, as the reception in Corona is poorer than in Orange County.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
Thanks for educating me, obviously I had no idea of any of this. I stand corrected. It is very strange that this frequency was chosen for aircraft use. I'm puzzled as it is likely other frequencies were probably available and I know that radio management people have access to a very extensive database for assigning discrete frequencies when assigning temporary frequencies for large incident use.

I'm watching a lot of Olympics and posted late last night while watching cross country skiing, women's luge and other events until 6 this morning. I didn't do any research on the issue as a result. I guess I better get more sleep before posting again!
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
10,666
Location
Taxachusetts
That is what these forums are about. Share the knowledge.

Yes, there are other VHF High frequencies that are also in that spectrum (162-174) that are NOT federal and assigned to other services. I know the NMF shares one with an IFB, gotta love when they come into Boston for Independence Day and can't use it. :)

You have taught many of us much about the Forest Service Operations.

Thanks for educating me, obviously I had no idea of any of this. I stand corrected. It is very strange that this frequency was chosen for aircraft use. I'm puzzled as it is likely other frequencies were probably available and I know that radio management people have access to a very extensive database for assigning discrete frequencies when assigning temporary frequencies for large incident use.

I'm watching a lot of Olympics and posted late last night while watching cross country skiing, women's luge and other events until 6 this morning. I didn't do any research on the issue as a result. I guess I better get more sleep before posting again!
 

KMA367

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Messages
1,061
Location
Redwood Coast, N Calif
170.150 is in a kind of similar situation to 166.25, being a US Govt frequency and both are also available to be licensed on a secondary basis "to stations in the Public Safety Pool, only at points within 241.4 km. (150 mi.) of New York, N.Y....(2) Operations on these channels is on a secondary basis to any Federal station;" (§90.265 (d)) - page 273 (pdf page 138) of
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title47-vol5/pdf/CFR-2011-title47-vol5-part90.pdf

There are currently 22 active 170.15 RP licenses in California. From the 1970s to 1986 I used to listen on that frequency to KFI's "Eye In the Sky" traffic reporter, Bruce Wayne, until the morning he crashed on takeoff from Fullerton airport and was killed instantly. If I remember correctly, a studio engineer or sometimes the DJ's (especially Lohman & Barkley in the mornings) would occasionally cue him up, but most of the time he would apparently just monitor the AM-640 broadcast and give his reports on 170.15, along with a bit of "cross-band" banter.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
I was aware of some 163+ MHz frequencies not being assigned to the federal government. I think that up in the 170+ MHz frequency range there are some wireless mike frequencies.

I just didn't know that 166.250 was one of the frequencies that could be licensed through the FCC. With such a well planned out system for air tactics I can't figure out why they would pick this frequency in southern California. If a large fire occurs this spring (yeah,, I know that most of the winter has been spring) I wouldn't be surprised if the secondary frequency became the primary, unless a new frequency has already been assigned.

East of the Mississippi 172.225 and 171.475 can be used by state forestry agencies. There might be some more as well. It's not easy to keep up with all this stuff as there always these nuances.

Bill, I have no idea what NMF is. The abbreviation monster strikes again and it is only 0741 here.
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
10,666
Location
Taxachusetts
National Marine Fisheries

I was aware of some 163+ MHz frequencies not being assigned to the federal government. I think that up in the 170+ MHz frequency range there are some wireless mike frequencies.

I just didn't know that 166.250 was one of the frequencies that could be licensed through the FCC. With such a well planned out system for air tactics I can't figure out why they would pick this frequency in southern California. If a large fire occurs this spring (yeah,, I know that most of the winter has been spring) I wouldn't be surprised if the secondary frequency became the primary, unless a new frequency has already been assigned.

East of the Mississippi 172.225 and 171.475 can be used by state forestry agencies. There might be some more as well. It's not easy to keep up with all this stuff as there always these nuances.

Bill, I have no idea what NMF is. The abbreviation monster strikes again and it is only 0741 here.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
National Marine Fisheries
Now I know why I couldn't figure it out, the name of the agency is actually "National Marine Fisheries Service" or "NMFS." I actually evaluated NMF and ruled it out because the "S" was not there. If you use an abbreviation make sure it is correct!! ;)
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
10,666
Location
Taxachusetts
No one calls it NMFs, it's been NMF and/or sadly NOAA or even DoC whom they are under.

Just like ATF, 99% don't use BATFE

Yes, abbreviations are tough, especially crossing services.

Now I know why I couldn't figure it out, the name of the agency is actually "National Marine Fisheries Service" or "NMFS." I actually evaluated NMF and ruled it out because the "S" was not there. If you use an abbreviation make sure it is correct!! ;)
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
In the federal government, at least in the Forest Service and the other natural resource/land management agencies we always included the full name of the agency. When there were environmental assessments and environmental impact statements written that involved a National Forest with andramonous fish the NMFS would be referred to with four letters among those who were working on the document. If you type NMFS into a search the "NOAA Fisheries" site comes up first. If you type in NMF you don't get the National Marine Fisheries Service at all.

NMF must be an eastern thing. Easterners and Midwestern folks pronounce Nevada, Na Vaaah Da when the people from that state and those who live in the Sierra Nevada, like myself, pronounce it "Na Va Da." The eastern U.S. begins at the eastern boundary of Denver International Airport.

I think the National Marine Fisheries Service and all of NOAA (including NWS) should be moved into the Department of the Interior. The NMFS and the National Ocean Service (part of NOAA) are more environmental in nature than in commerce. Move the Forest Service in there as well. The Natural Resources Conservation Service (previously called the Soil Conservation Service) should go over to Interior. Then rename DOI "Department of Natural Resources" or "Department of Environment." Consider moving the EPA into this new department as well, instead of its present status of answering to the President and the Council on Environmental Quality. Nixon's bill establishing the EPA made the agency independent of any cabinet level secretary.

Back to the NMFS and their use of radio frequencies that can be interrupted by an IFB. Many don't know it but both the NMFS and NOAA both have law enforcement organizations. My patch collection includes uniform patches from both of them. One job that NMFS that a lot of people are attracted to is counting pounds of fish caught, by species, on ships in the Bering Sea. You have to provide your own barf bucket though.

Well, this has been an education! I'll try to find out what the Air to Air FM Tactics frequencies will be for this year. Since both air to ground and air to air frequencies, as well as tactical frequencies used by the feds don't have tones on them, they are unable to tune out the IFB's. At the power and location the nearest IFB's are to the Cleveland NF tone squelch probably wouldn't do a lot of good anyway.
 

Markb

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 21, 2002
Messages
1,167
Location
Planet Earth
Thanks for the info, Smokey. At least we know it's not a typo. I would be interested to find out the scoop on why this frequency was chosen and if it is still valid or if an internal memo went out changing it or what?
Thanks again.

Mark

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top