Confusing Tones?

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Chaos703

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So I'm sitting on top of my favorite bluff (overlooking the port) the other night playing with my new pro 97. I'm picking up some distant chatter on 155.415. Since B-ville doesn't have a tone I turn on the tone search feature in the hopes that I can ID the distant user by cross-referencing the tone and freq. But every time something broke the squelch a different tone came up. I made a note of all the tones and found nothing listed for that frequency with any of those tones in OK, AR, MO or KS. So here's my question:

Was I picking up several different, very, very distant, sources or is the tone search feature easily confused?
 

Grog

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As stated in another recent post, if there is no tone, it will show different tones. If there is a real tone, it will decode it just fine.
 

Gilligan

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Grog said:
As stated in another recent post, if there is no tone, it will show different tones. If there is a real tone, it will decode it just fine.
Why would it display a different tone? Can you point me to the post that describes that?
 

Grog

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I can't find the thread right now. It's been less than a month I think.
If there is no tone, it just tends to show different tones, and sometimes it's just blank. The 92 I had did it as well as the 97/2055 combo. I have done extensive testing, and the 97/2055 has always shown the correct tone when it was being transmitted.
 

Chaos703

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Grog, Since your insight on this I've done some experiments using Bartlesville PD. I notice that when I'm receiving a strong signal the code search doesn't ID anything. But when I can only receive a fringe signal the code search consistently ID's random codes. So you're definitely on to something. But I'd sure love to know why it does it.
 

KD5WLX

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It's the nature of audio tones. The PL tones are an audible tone that is theoretically "below" what the human ear can hear (but some people can hear the higher ones). If they were hyper-amplified, they'd be the bass notes that you can feel in your chest, even though you don't hear them. At low levels, they "disappear" into the background noise.

However, the radio's amp circuitry, the mics (some of them anyway) and the human voice are all capable of producing those tones, even when it's not intended.

When a radio is using a PL, then it "filters" all audio freqs below some cutoff ABOVE the tone, then injects the tone below it. In the receiver, it intreprets the tone, then filters it back out before audio amplification, to avoid the annoyance of hearing it (cheap radios like scanners probably couldn't reproduce such a low freq with their tiny speakers anyway, so it would just sound bad).

However, radios that DON'T use a tone might or might not filter out freqs in the PL range, so "stray noise" might be transmitted with the modulating signal, or generated in the transmitter itself. If you don't want to see the confusion on the scanner, set it to FM mode instead of PL mode when you know the freq doesn't have a PL, then it won't show anything.

Example:
If I transmit 88.5 PL, my radio might filter "input" modulation (voice) below 150Hz, then inject the 88.5 tone. The receiver that "expects" a tone (any tone, like an amateur repeater) "listens" for the correct tone, then filters the demodulated audio below 300Hz, then (if it's programmed to re-transmit the tone) re-injects the same (or a different) PL.

On the other hand, a "good" receiver might be set to filter (ignore) all demodulated audio below 300Hz (limit of "normal" communications grade receivers/microphones) - thus NO PL is heard/decoded.

Third case, a "cheap" transmitter doesn't limit modulation below 300Hz, and a "cheap" receiver with no audio filters, hears 20Hz to 20,000Hz audio (but can only reproduce 200Hz to 5000Hz) - if it hears a "strong" tone (or lack thereof) it says so (displaying correct PL or none) but if it hears "random" noise generated by the transmitter, it "tries" to decode it, but what it's really decoding is the phase noise generated by the transmitter, the thunder in the background, the car going by, etc. Thus it gets a different "tone" every time it tries.
 
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