N8FNR
Member
Is there any reason that the FCC would not sunset all amateur radio and just sell it off to the highest bidder or just declare it a threat to "national security" to make it illegal?
Could the FCC "sunset" all American amateur radio?
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Ludicrous
But why though?
im not really active but my understanding is that the demand is high bandwidth data in the ghz bands not much interest in anything below 700mhz
1) How is it a threat to national security?
2) The majority of our bandwidth is not really sought after for commercial means.
2) The majority of our bandwidth is not really sought after for commercial means.
A threat to National Security??
Give me a break.
The only way I can see a threat to National Security is a disgruntled amateur radio operator rebroadcasting sensitive information on the
federal level and I doubt that very seriously because most federal comms are encrypted anyway.
Plus what would they have to gain? The loss of their license, fine and possible jail time.
It isn't worth the risk. (To me)
Most amateur radio operators like the hobby and fun of having a way to communicate with others both locally and worldwide.
Amateur Radio Operators provide a need for critical communications during disasters.
During disasters when federal, state and local infrastructures go down the amateur radios operators are the only group I know that are self
supporting. They have the means to be back up and running way before the local infrastructure would be.
That is why most Emergency Operations Centers have a dedicated amateur radio operator assigned to be with them during a disaster.
Amateur Radio Operators provide real time information instead of the Emergency Operations Center staff waiting on local agencies to
report back in. Gives the EOC staff a heads up in planning the next action during a disaster.
I don't think Amateur Radio is going anywhere anytime soon especially during times of disasters.
David
Give me a break.
The only way I can see a threat to National Security is a disgruntled amateur radio operator rebroadcasting sensitive information on the
federal level and I doubt that very seriously because most federal comms are encrypted anyway.
Plus what would they have to gain? The loss of their license, fine and possible jail time.
It isn't worth the risk. (To me)
Most amateur radio operators like the hobby and fun of having a way to communicate with others both locally and worldwide.
Amateur Radio Operators provide a need for critical communications during disasters.
During disasters when federal, state and local infrastructures go down the amateur radios operators are the only group I know that are self
supporting. They have the means to be back up and running way before the local infrastructure would be.
That is why most Emergency Operations Centers have a dedicated amateur radio operator assigned to be with them during a disaster.
Amateur Radio Operators provide real time information instead of the Emergency Operations Center staff waiting on local agencies to
report back in. Gives the EOC staff a heads up in planning the next action during a disaster.
I don't think Amateur Radio is going anywhere anytime soon especially during times of disasters.
David
I think you are dating yourself with some of these beliefs.
Most major municipalities/counties/states now have redundant communications systems that have backup generator power in multiple locations, communications trailers (COWs) and satellite capabilities. Most minor municipalities don't even have an EOC. I have never seen an amateur operator at our EOC and can attest to the fact that even when they are present at events, such as the Boston Marathon, their interaction with public safety for communications purposes is almost non-existent.
That said, I do carry a HT with me on Marathon Monday just in case, but I am the anomaly. In the past, your statements were true, but as time has moved forward, the amateur operator has been far outpaced by technology and, as a result, is becoming more and more irrelevant as a tool for assisting public safety.
belvdr
No longer interested in living
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I always wondered what antenna system amateurs would use at an EOC that would survive (or be up and running) before public infrastructure would be. Is there simply an allotment of jacks the amateur would use to connect their own antenna to?
I'll admit I'm biased against ARES/RACES/SkyWARN. In the few cities I've listened to it, it's a complete mess. In one area, many people were reporting nothing significant, but one gentleman was reporting hail and funnel clouds, and he was within 1 mile of other observers. In another area, people would key up over one another and declare wind speeds without any equipment. I might as well get grandma to give me the weather and her estimates. *shrug*
I'll admit I'm biased against ARES/RACES/SkyWARN. In the few cities I've listened to it, it's a complete mess. In one area, many people were reporting nothing significant, but one gentleman was reporting hail and funnel clouds, and he was within 1 mile of other observers. In another area, people would key up over one another and declare wind speeds without any equipment. I might as well get grandma to give me the weather and her estimates. *shrug*
The FCC can slice up the VHF and UHF spectrum, but definitly not for HF.
When it comes to the HF ham radio bands, the US is bound by international treaty. The US is one of 196 countries that have signed an agreement regulating radio with a body known as the International Telecommunications Union (ITU). The link below has a list of the member states.
www.itu.int
The ITU regulations are set during periodic World Administrative Radio Conferences (WARC conferences) where all coutries send delegats. Radio Conferences To sunset the Amateur HF bands, there would have to be an international vote. (Out of interest, the amateur community is the only non government body that has a voice at these meetings by way of the International Amateur Radio Union. IARU | Global )
As a side note of interest:
The ITU requires that the governments of its member states take such measures as they judge necessary to verify the operational and technical qualifications of any person wishing to operate an amateur station. (This applies to all the member countries of the ITU).
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/m/R-REC-M.1544-1-201509-I!!PDF-E.pdf
Any person seeking a license to operate an amateur station should demonstrate theoretical knowledge of:
Radio Regulations
- international
- domestic
Methods of radiocommunication
- radiotelephony
- radio telegraphy
- data and image
Radio System Theory
- transmitters
- receivers
- antennas and propagation
- measurements
- radio emission safety
- operating procedures
- electromagnetic compatibility
- avoidance and resolution of radio frequency interference
When it comes to the HF ham radio bands, the US is bound by international treaty. The US is one of 196 countries that have signed an agreement regulating radio with a body known as the International Telecommunications Union (ITU). The link below has a list of the member states.
List of ITU Member States
The ITU regulations are set during periodic World Administrative Radio Conferences (WARC conferences) where all coutries send delegats. Radio Conferences To sunset the Amateur HF bands, there would have to be an international vote. (Out of interest, the amateur community is the only non government body that has a voice at these meetings by way of the International Amateur Radio Union. IARU | Global )
As a side note of interest:
The ITU requires that the governments of its member states take such measures as they judge necessary to verify the operational and technical qualifications of any person wishing to operate an amateur station. (This applies to all the member countries of the ITU).
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/m/R-REC-M.1544-1-201509-I!!PDF-E.pdf
Any person seeking a license to operate an amateur station should demonstrate theoretical knowledge of:
Radio Regulations
- international
- domestic
Methods of radiocommunication
- radiotelephony
- radio telegraphy
- data and image
Radio System Theory
- transmitters
- receivers
- antennas and propagation
- measurements
- radio emission safety
- operating procedures
- electromagnetic compatibility
- avoidance and resolution of radio frequency interference
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GlobalNorth
Active Member
International treaty? Yes, treaties exist and they are voluntarily adhered to only by signatories that elect to do so and because it may benefit the signatory states. They do not carry the force of law and are often broken at will because there is no such thing as international law. The UN, nor the ITU, nor the ICC, etc. has the power or the means to force any nation-state to adhere to or comply with a treaty. Relying on the concept of international treaties to protect anything is an exercise in unanticipated conflict. That's the practical and realist side of "governance" in the international realm.
Amateur radio is a slowly dying hobby. The Red Cross stopped using deployed amateur radios during disaster incidents, MARS is a legacy of the Cold War, and volunteerism in the hobby barely exists any longer - how many hams belong to clubs and actively contribute anything beyond their personal opinions?
Can the FCC eliminate amateur radio? Yes, they can. Will they? No. The FCC can barely enforce the rule of law over pirate radio, much less the appropriation of 10 meters, or a flood of bad LM radios from China. When I was in law enforcement, our main channel was appropriated by a Spanish language landscaping company. We complained loudly to the FCC and they did nothing for a city PD - we had to rely on a local radio shop to find a fix. The FCC is too busy auctioning off blocks of cash-bearing spectrum to care about their existing users.
Amateur radio is a slowly dying hobby. The Red Cross stopped using deployed amateur radios during disaster incidents, MARS is a legacy of the Cold War, and volunteerism in the hobby barely exists any longer - how many hams belong to clubs and actively contribute anything beyond their personal opinions?
Can the FCC eliminate amateur radio? Yes, they can. Will they? No. The FCC can barely enforce the rule of law over pirate radio, much less the appropriation of 10 meters, or a flood of bad LM radios from China. When I was in law enforcement, our main channel was appropriated by a Spanish language landscaping company. We complained loudly to the FCC and they did nothing for a city PD - we had to rely on a local radio shop to find a fix. The FCC is too busy auctioning off blocks of cash-bearing spectrum to care about their existing users.
Yes it is. They are also going after public safety spectrum. Recently changed the rules for 4.9GHz requiring states to lease PS spectrum to commercial users. Also opened 6GHz PS spectrum to expand wifi. These decisions pose a risk to public safety systems but that didn't seem to be a concern to Ajit Pai and the FCC.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Unlikely. However, the government is well known for doing stupid stuff. There have been a few 'hold my beer' moments. Usually they don't last.
During WW2, amateur radio was essentially shut down for the duration.
But as others have said, ITU has many of these bands set aside by region (some across all regions) so repurposing the HF bands would be very unlikely as there would always be issues with interference.
As for the VHF and up stuff...
2 meter band is only 4MHz wide here in the USA. While an extra 4 MHz of spectrum would be mighty handy, it's unlikely to happen. Likely the FCC would refarm the existing VHF band and clean it up. Also, flushing out the non-existant/underused VHF business and public safety systems would make more sense. A lot of "VHF backup systems" where agencies/localities have gone to 700MHz trunked systems.
VHF isn't very useful for cell/broadband carriers. Propagation is wonky at times (as hams know) and that would make it problematic for carriers. Also, 4MHz of band isn't very useful without a matching and nearby 4MHz of band to handle uplink.
220 had a bite taken out of it years ago, but the 'need' for that bite sort of fell apart. Again, 3MHz of orphaned band without another 3MHz chunk isn't very useful.
70cm band is already assigned to military and some other users, amateur radio is secondary allotment. Sure, hams could get kicked off, but the military and other users are not going to go quietly. In some areas of the country, hams have already been restricted on 70cm where in proximity to certain military radar systems.
900MHz? There is already a company gobbling up spectrum there for a nationwide LTE service. If I was the kind to get nervous about this stuff, it would be the 900MHz band.
1200MHz on up? Yeah, some risk, but there's a lot of spectrum up there to fight over. Some of it is shared with hams and other users, so it's not just kicking off the amateurs.
Hams like to claim spectrum is "theirs", but there's a lot of realities that get overlooked.
Actually, the 220-222 MHz segment is now being used by the railroads for their federally-mandated Positive Train Control systems. The consortiums that designed the PTC hardware have already complained to the FCC that they might need more spectrum. So, it's conceivable that the FCC could come after the 222-225 MHz slice where amateur radio is currently primary.
Years ago I was a member of RACES in the county I grew up in. We were quite active and used at the request of the EMA/EMS director. We were trained in damage assessment, weather spotters, and used as back up comms for the county EMS. During the Y2K scare, we ran a net starting at 9 PM on the local repeater and took check-ins every 30 minutes. During this net, we went ahead and took check-ins from non RACES members because we felt it would extend some "goodwill."
Before I became an ham and was involved in RACES, we had in our area a severe flood on Mother's Day. As a result, it washed out quite a few roads and the townships and county didn't have the resources to repair them. The governor sent the National Guard in. The Guardsmen found out quickly that their radios in their vehicles didn't work in our terrain/environment. They couldn't talk to their CO. So the solution was to send RACES members out with the Guard units to provide them with communications. It worked really well.
We never had an issue with our members overstating a situation or getting in the way of something. Unfortunately the issue was with us was that as a small area, the primary folks that were members were older, retired folks. Once that core of folks passed away, our group was no longer viable. At the time we were pretty active, we basically ran the radio room in the EOC. We had our 2M radio for our repeater in there, a setup for packet radio, an HF radio, and then there was a VHF public safety radio, a UHF public safety radio, at the time the new Ohio MARCS statewide trunked system, and a backup tone board for FD/EMS dispatching.
As for the FCC sunsetting all of these frequencies, I don't think they would do that to the frequencies under the GHz range. I read the other day that the FCC took away some 3 to 3.5 GHz frequencies from hams for wireless services. Those are the frequencies I see disappearing from hams. The utility of the HF/VHF/UHF bands for data communications is not fast enough. I would conservatively say that those frequencies are relatively safe.
Not exactly. The States CAN lease it out under the new order, but are not REQUIRED to lease it out.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Good point, forgot about PTC. I think FedEx tried to grab it at one point many years ago before PTC.
Under utilized slice of spectrum. I know that's blasphemous to say that being a ham myself, but it is what it is. "Use it or lose it".
As for US giving up any of the VHF/lower UHF bands, that would create the whole "line A/line C thing with Canada/Mexico, unless they both followed the same changes.
Realistically, the end result would be increased out-banding and illegal operation that the FCC would be nearly powerless to stop. Look at CB, and already illegal hunting and business operations found on 2m and 70cm that the FCC rarely if ever can solve.
I believe it was UPS who lobbied for that chunk of 1.25m spectrum and never ended up doing much with it. Nonetheless, it's a band that's unique to ITU Region 2 hams and no where else.
And I think part of the under utilization is the lack of readily available hardware. With a few exceptions, YaeComWood don't make 222 gear and these are the brands that hams primarily flock to when they're thinking of buying a new toy.
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