Courtesy beeps considered harmful

[plaws]

OK, I won't prattle on about how I think amateur-radio-style courtesy beeps on public safety systems sound, well, amateur.

What worries me is why courtesy beeps exist. They are there to prevent long-winded hams from "timing out" the repeater.

Ham repeaters are set to stop transmitting after a set amount of time, usually somewhere in the 3-5 minute range (some much longer).

If an over-anxious ham does not wait for the courtesy beep before transmitting himself, that timer will not reset, leading to a time out. This is also sometimes called the "fillibuster timer" for those long-winded hams -- and surprisingly, there are many! -- who aren't able to self-regulate. Even short transmissions made without an intervening beep will make the repeater time out.

So what's the problem?

Public Safety repeaters should never have that timeout timer set!

If they do, then the radio tech isn't doing his job and is, potentially, putting users in jeopardy.

It is possible to set some repeaters so that the courtesy tone sounds without the time-out timer being set. Let's hope that the ones we hear in Central Oklahoma are set that way.

 

[rfradioconsult]

In most public safety radio systems the dispatcher does not listen to the repeater output but the input via a dedicated link to the dispatch center; the TOT function only disables the repeater transmitter until the COR detects a loss of carrier and reset the TOT. A TOT does not disable the repeater receive audio path to the dispatch center.

 

[N_Jay]

All repeaters should have TOTs set.

Hams are not the only ones long-winded, and "Doughnut Enhanced" LEOs have been known to occasionally sit on their microphones.

The TOT should be reset by the squelch decoder and should not fail to reset with a new user. (no matter how fast they key), but I could see it happening.

 

[Jay911]

Time out timers exist not just to silence nuisance run-off-at-the-mouth types.

Another local fire department to me (not my own) had an incident about a year ago where their radio tech (also a firefighter) got an alert from the repeater site of unusually high temps. He broke away from the call they were working, and went to the tower to find that the repeater had darn near cooked itself. The users, combined with the extraordinarily long repeater tail on the system he had inherited, had combined to keep the repeater actively transmitting for 93 minutes straight.

Roger beeps/courtesy beeps are one thing. I don't want or need any extraneous beeps, tones, squawks, or anything else on my channel - when I'm on the FF end or the dispatch end. But time-out-timers are another thing entirely - there's no reason that any message on the fireground should last more than 30 seconds, let alone 60 or higher.

 

[n5usr]

Hm, all the repeater controllers I've ever worked with reset the TOT on squelch or CTCSS decoder (whichever is in use) dropping. The beeps have nothing at all to do with it. The only way the timer doesn't get reset is if someone quick-keys before the previous person unkeys such that the repeater doesn't see the signal drop.

I can't stand beeps, given the option I turn them off completely. But I also dislike having the repeater transmitter drop between each transmission, so I do use long (usually about 5 second) drop tails. (I've only worked with amateur repeaters, no PS or commercial.)

I would think a PS repeater should NOT have a TOT. First, the equipment should be properly designed to handle continuous duty. It can certainly be done, and to me should be a given for anything life-safety related. Also, it's often a lot easier to figure out who might be sitting on their mic if you can hear them. Maybe someone recognizes something they hear and calls on a cell phone. If the TOT turns off the transmitter, that may not be too easy to do.

 

[N_Jay]

Hm, all the repeater controllers I've ever worked with reset the TOT on squelch or CTCSS decoder (whichever is in use) dropping. The beeps have nothing at all to do with it. The only way the timer doesn't get reset is if someone quick-keys before the previous person unkeys such that the repeater doesn't see the signal drop.

I can't stand beeps, given the option I turn them off completely. But I also dislike having the repeater transmitter drop between each transmission, so I do use long (usually about 5 second) drop tails. (I've only worked with amateur repeaters, no PS or commercial.)

I would think a PS repeater should NOT have a TOT. First, the equipment should be properly designed to handle continuous duty. It can certainly be done, and to me should be a given for anything life-safety related. Also, it's often a lot easier to figure out who might be sitting on their mic if you can hear them. Maybe someone recognizes something they hear and calls on a cell phone. If the TOT turns off the transmitter, that may not be too easy to do.

ALL repeaters should have TOT, and as a matter of fact ALL transmitters should also..

I have never heard of a TOT causing a problem on a public safety radio system.

 

[n5usr]

Do you often feel the need to repeat yourself NJay, or do you just like arguing with people to see your post count go up? You already said what you thought, I then said what I thought.

It was so much nicer around here while you were gone.

 

[KD5WLX]

The courtesy beep and the time-out timer are unrelated in any case. The courtesy beep works in conjunction with the squelch tail time and the CTCSS to tell the users when the channel is "free".

If you're working simplex, you have your squelch open. If you are then working someone who is strong (full quieting in FM) then it is obvious when they unkey, because the unmodulated carrier goes away, and the "noise" goes from talking, to quiet, to "white noise" (hiss). When you hear the hiss, then you know the other party has unkeyed.

On repeaters using CTCSS, there is a case where the squelch tail is long, but the CTCSS drops (when the user unkeys). The effect is clear, full quieting signal (with or without speech), followed by a loud hiss of white noise (the squelch tail after the input carrier drops), followed by silence (when the transmitter finally drops as well). This can be EXTREMELY annoying, especially when the squelch tail is 4 or 5 seconds long. If you set the CTCSS on the receive side, then the "regular" users never hear the squelch tail, but anyone not using CTCSS decode gets the ear splitting hiss. On the other hand, if you set the CTCSS hang time slightly longer than the squelch hang time, then there is never any squelch tail white noise heard - on any receiver (CTCSS decoded or not). The danger here is any user of the FREQ (toned or not) will key your repeater if they key up on the CTCSS tail, although they will be dropped when the CTCSS drops.

If you want to lock out the "unauthorized" interfering users, use CTCSS, and set its tail to exactly the same length as the squelch tail, and both as short as the controller will allow. Now, the timer always resets and the squelch always drops on every unkey.

Now, the courtesy tone comes in. Since there is effectively NO squelch tail any more, there is no way for a user to know if you unkeyed (and their radio went to squelch quieted) or if you paused for breath without unkeying. The tone makes that absolutely (if in some cases annoyingly) obvious. Now for my pet peeve - those who say "over" (indicating "I'm unkeying now, it's your turn to talk") on a repeater with both an audible squelch tail AND a courtesy tone. Can you say Department of Repeating Redunancies Department?

And finally, and this is also one of my pet peeves when doing emcomm, and I find more "pros" are much WORSE about it than many of the amateurs (but not nearly as bad as a select few) are "tailgaters". I know it's the excitement of the chase/heat of the battle/pick your favorite metaphor here - but - it is a basic principle of good radio discipline to not only let the tail drop (simplex OR repeater) and THEN WAIT a second or so before you key up. This is the ONLY way that another party can break in.

I recently heard a fire department where "command" was back and forth with "water supply" about a broken hydrant for 3 solid minutes - and an interior crew was bailing out (near MAYDAY situation) AND the attack engine was trying to break in. It seems the interior attack crew was on the first in engine tank water, and ran out of water, then experienced a flashover and bailed (safely, thank God) all while never being able to tell Command, or to be warned they were about out of water by their Engine. Nor could their engine tell command of the imminent emergency.

If you don't tailgate, then you don't double, and you allow the "higher priority" stations a chance to break in.

 

[jim202]

Let me stay neutral on the beep. However on the time out timers, having a job that keeps me
constantly on the road, I get to visit Public Safety radio systems every week all around the country.
It floors me to see just how many of those systems don't have the user radio time out timers set.

I hear fire departments where the fire fighters take a break and lay their bunker coats down on
the ground. Someone always manages to lay the coat so that their speaker mike ends up being
keyed. I have heard the trunking channel get tied up for well over 30 minutes and can hear
loud talking going on in the background. If the user radio had the time out timer activated, the
portable would only stay keyed for the 2 or 3 minutes before it shut off and emitted a loud tone
from the speaker to indicate it had timed out. This way the talkgroup on the trunking system
would be available for normal use. Otherwise, you end up doing a failure test on the poor
transmitter that was selected and it stays keyed until the portable dies or the trunking transmitter
fails from over heat.

Same thing goes for the mobile radios in any vehicle. I am sure you have heard a conversation
where someone has thrown the mic on the seat and managed to sit on it or move it so it keys up.
Again if the timer was set on the mobile, it would time out and release the channel for use again.

Do what you want, but I have a dear desire to leave the public safety radio channels available
for emergencies rather than have to listen to someone that has managed to key a radio and
doesn't even know it. Some of the conversations that have been heard from accidental keying
like this have cost people their jobs for some of the things that went over the radio.

Jim

Ham repeaters are set to stop transmitting after a set amount of time, usually somewhere in the 3-5 minute range (some much longer).

Public Safety repeaters should never have that timeout timer set!

If they do, then the radio tech isn't doing his job and is, potentially, putting users in jeopardy.

It is possible to set some repeaters so that the courtesy tone sounds without the time-out timer being set. Let's hope that the ones we hear in Central Oklahoma are set that way.

 

[xerb1962]

The courtesy beep and the time-out timer are unrelated in any case. The courtesy beep works in conjunction with the squelch tail time and the CTCSS to tell the users when the channel is "free".

If you're working simplex, you have your squelch open. If you are then working someone who is strong (full quieting in FM) then it is obvious when they unkey, because the unmodulated carrier goes away, and the "noise" goes from talking, to quiet, to "white noise" (hiss). When you hear the hiss, then you know the other party has unkeyed.

On repeaters using CTCSS, there is a case where the squelch tail is long, but the CTCSS drops (when the user unkeys). The effect is clear, full quieting signal (with or without speech), followed by a loud hiss of white noise (the squelch tail after the input carrier drops), followed by silence (when the transmitter finally drops as well). This can be EXTREMELY annoying, especially when the squelch tail is 4 or 5 seconds long. If you set the CTCSS on the receive side, then the "regular" users never hear the squelch tail, but anyone not using CTCSS decode gets the ear splitting hiss. On the other hand, if you set the CTCSS hang time slightly longer than the squelch hang time, then there is never any squelch tail white noise heard - on any receiver (CTCSS decoded or not). The danger here is any user of the FREQ (toned or not) will key your repeater if they key up on the CTCSS tail, although they will be dropped when the CTCSS drops.

If you want to lock out the "unauthorized" interfering users, use CTCSS, and set its tail to exactly the same length as the squelch tail, and both as short as the controller will allow. Now, the timer always resets and the squelch always drops on every unkey.

Now, the courtesy tone comes in. Since there is effectively NO squelch tail any more, there is no way for a user to know if you unkeyed (and their radio went to squelch quieted) or if you paused for breath without unkeying. The tone makes that absolutely (if in some cases annoyingly) obvious. Now for my pet peeve - those who say "over" (indicating "I'm unkeying now, it's your turn to talk") on a repeater with both an audible squelch tail AND a courtesy tone. Can you say Department of Repeating Redunancies Department?

And finally, and this is also one of my pet peeves when doing emcomm, and I find more "pros" are much WORSE about it than many of the amateurs (but not nearly as bad as a select few) are "tailgaters". I know it's the excitement of the chase/heat of the battle/pick your favorite metaphor here - but - it is a basic principle of good radio discipline to not only let the tail drop (simplex OR repeater) and THEN WAIT a second or so before you key up. This is the ONLY way that another party can break in.

I recently heard a fire department where "command" was back and forth with "water supply" about a broken hydrant for 3 solid minutes - and an interior crew was bailing out (near MAYDAY situation) AND the attack engine was trying to break in. It seems the interior attack crew was on the first in engine tank water, and ran out of water, then experienced a flashover and bailed (safely, thank God) all while never being able to tell Command, or to be warned they were about out of water by their Engine. Nor could their engine tell command of the imminent emergency.

If you don't tailgate, then you don't double, and you allow the "higher priority" stations a chance to break in.

One of the best post ever. All law enforcement...fire personnel....EOC....etc.....should read this and be able to understand it.

 

[N_Jay]

Do you often feel the need to repeat yourself NJay, or do you just like arguing with people to see your post count go up? You already said what you thought, I then said what I thought.

It was so much nicer around here while you were gone.

I only repeat myself, when others insists on repeating their lunacy.:roll:

As for post counts, I really don't give a ****, and wish it was removed just to shut up people like you would actually think I give a **** about post counts!:evil::evil:

 

[k5phw]

Is no forum safe from you? :evil:

 

[N_Jay]

Is no forum safe from you? :evil:

Who? Me?

 

[Sparky_one]

One of Oklahoma City police's old legacy repeaters gets jammed up now and then. It happened the other day. It appears to time out after a few minutes. I know they still monitor those systems as I've heard some traffic over them that was not over the provoice system. They also appear to use them for some paging functions.