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Create a new Class E (CB/FRS) from part of the Ham 70cm band?

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jdobbs2001

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The whole 420-450 (30Mhz spectrum) sits pretty idle with little use by Amateur radio operations. So why not carve out 2Mhz out of that band for narrow band 12.5khz (2.5khz deviation) FM equipment.

This would provide 160 channels of usable frequencies.

The first 30 channels limited to a max of 5 watts, no repeaters.

The rest limit to 50 watts, and allow repeater operations.

license free like MURS.

Taxpayers pay lots of taxes for FCC coffers yet we deserve a slice of this electromagnetic spectrum. give the people a 160 channel UHF band for personal/business use without all the redtape,licensing costs etc.
 

jrplmil

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Ok

I for one would not object. It would benefit everyone. I am an licensed ham KA5KOH and have been sense 1980.
 

mmckenna

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Amateur radio isn't the only allocation in the 420-450 range, so it isn't as easy as amateurs giving up that spectrum. The US Air Force runs PAVE/PAWS radar in parts of that band, and they already have an issue with 70cm Amateur repeaters interfering with the system. Putting unlicensed (actually would be "License by Rule") in that spectrum would be met with much resistance from the AF.

GMRS, at least in my area, is vastly under utilized. Other than the "paper repeaters" or the systems that never get used, it's a wasteland. I can see the need for more spectrum in urban areas, but not sure 30MHz is necessary. Getting 30MHz of bandwidth anywhere is nearly impossible, and when it happens, it's a billion dollar auction. The US Government isn't going to pass up billions of dollars in free money, and the wireless carriers control to much to let them give it away. Remember, there are some in congress that are still looking for somewhere to stuff all those T band users they want to displace.

If you were looking for a good slice of Amateur spectrum to look at, check out the 222MHz band. It's more under utilized in most areas than 70cm. Benefit would be that it behaves a bit more "VHF like" than 70cm's would. Drawback is that equipment is harder to find.

Of course, there are the Amateurs that will get upset over this. Even though many will agree that the VHF and UHF bands are under utilized, I doubt any of it will be given up without a huge fight. ARRL has enough money to lobby against it. Consumers are pretty far down the list of who is eligible for chunks of spectrum.

Another good option would be for the FCC to just allow FM on the 27MHz CB band. Being able to run narrow band FM, as well as CTCSS or DCS tones would address a lot of issues. Other option would be to refarm GMRS/FRS into 6.25KHz digital channels
 

KC8ESL

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Here in Cleveland (and other places within a border distance of Canada) we're not allowed to operate on 420-430MHz so that leaves us a 20MHz chunk. Experimental/SSB/sat uplinks/ATV/etc take up the majority of 430-442MHz. More use than you might assume. So as not to step on that chunk of bandwidth, where in the 442-450MHz band do you suggest?

442-445MHz is repeater outputs, 447-449.9875MHz is repeater inputs. 445-447MHz is FM simplex. Good luck keeping a non-part 95 radio off that area.

To keep on this further, let's not forget about the numerous repeater links and aux control links that amateurs have adopted for use in this band.

Spend your time more wisely by requesting that the FCC re-vamp the rules on GMRS and make it more user friendly (fully allowing part 90 radios....) without removing the ability to set up a repeater.
 

jdobbs2001

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I was not saying take the whole 30Mhz chunk.

Only a 2Mhz Chunk. either make them 160 12.5Khz analog or if the digital tech is up to par, only permit 6.25Khz channels which would mean 320 channels in that 2Mhz chunk.
 

KC8ESL

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Jdobbs, read my statement above. Where do you plan on getting the 2 MHz of "pretty idle" spectrum? More happens there than you think or know.

What's idle is the GMRS band with NOTHING other than bubble pack radios and ridiculous beeping from neighborhood kids. It already is a free for all. No one cares (other than the people on here constantly reciting the part 95 rules) what happens there. I'm sure it would get the FCC's attention if you keyed up a 3 kW carrier for hours at a time but that's unlikely to be done.

Someday the "old guard" will die off at some ripe old age and things will change somewhat for what works on the younger generations. But, as a younger person in this hobby I will say this: If you intend on using radios for business purposes, I'd pay to have the protection and backup of the FCC on a license allocation that is owned by my business and coordinated appropriately such that if some whacker decides he's going to park where my reserved spot is, I have legal recourse against it.

In other words for this specific situation, if no one complains, no one enforces.
 

n8zcc

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I was not saying take the whole 30Mhz chunk.

Only a 2Mhz Chunk. either make them 160 12.5Khz analog or if the digital tech is up to par, only permit 6.25Khz channels which would mean 320 channels in that 2Mhz chunk.
Like KC8ESL asked a few posts up, where from the band do you want to carve out the 2 MHz? I don't see any space available.
 

WB4CS

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Why would we reinvent the wheel???

How many license-by-rule channels do we need in the US??? There's 40 on CB (HF), there's 5 on MURS (VHF), and 14 on FRS (UHF). Do we really need even MORE license-by-rule channels that either A) never get used like MURS, or B) become overran with illegal high power stations like on CB and FRS/GMRS.

A GMRS license is cheap. There's no test involved. If you really want "CB" on UHF, get a GMRS license. Or, instead of trying to create an entirely new radio service that would take away from spectrum already used, why not petition the FCC to drop the license requirement for GMRS and you'll have UHF CB.

On a funny note, I'd love to see some CB'rs move to UHF. 2KW "kickers" on UHF should cook their brains a lot faster than it does on 27 MHz :) :twisted:
 

quarterwave

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I'd have to give a no vote on this one, but would never discourage anyone's good ideas.

1. 50 watts without a license is a big fat NO in my book....too many problems from .5 watt FRS unlicensed now.

2. Don't know alot of HAMS that want to give up any part of the spectrum, don't blame them at all.

3. The notion that 70cm is under-used or "packed" is very subjective. We have a whole country to consider.

4. Same for GMRS. 8 Channls may seem to be wasted on rural areas...but packed in cities. And I think it is a little hard to judge when no one monitors all channels, 24hrs, in all areas to log air time.

If anything, I would like to see FRS gone. If you want to find 7 or 14 channels somewhere else in UHF for them....great. GMRS is used, and needs to be used right, rather than finding for every cause to have their own little spectrum section.
 

ron36

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programable radios for utlizing extras channels

under part 95 any radio can transmit under5 watts. on gmrs or 20 foot or less. with a programable radio drop frs.1-7 since kids will use those first. start with channels 8-22 in a programmable radio. watts or less is legal. gmrs has 5 extra channels .467.55- 467. 575 467.600 467.625 467.650 467675 467.700 467.725...part 95 does say no operations north of lines a and c .on these channels yes if your south you these in place of 1-7 frs ...that will liminate bubble pack kids , and pl tone optionals with a programable radio...if your willing to spend extra for desent radio. giving 14 quiet channels ...kids willuse 1-7 first normally. so drop 1-7 if you have programming ability. then add murs 5 channels again pl tones can be used on these... 14 gmrs plus 5 murs 19 channels. you could utlize a couple more if you need to portablely from business pool like 151.505 .154.415 . then youll have 20 or 21 plus channels. but a multiband radio is required to utlize vhf/uhf together. on these channels if the need a rises. remember cb was only 23 channels back in the day. so using 40 channels vhf/uhf would be far fetched with low noise any ways. another considering thing vhf marine is be comming more and more un governed with out licesne so to say...no one will care if channel 69 is used for a short distance talk in land...unless 60 foot antennea or 50watts or over is used . if your legally under what part 95 says you can use you have no worries . motorala has such equipment and you can program certain un licensed frequecies already . wolly world doesn,t sell programable equipment ...it all boils down to your pocket book and look at the part 95s again ...following wattage rule is number one first... yet many license frequencies can be utlized together with the right radio.
 

ron36

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frs/gmrs adding

my general complaint with the bubble packs ...part95 says clearly frs/gmrs are recreation and family talk. not be used for business puroses yet i hear flaggers all day on mine and kids . so i normally use two channels thats 15 and 9 . i wish they tell not only kids stay off stupid thing but tell construction comanys stay off channels 1-9 . i think they shoould have a kids band like 39 mhz to play with...let us grown ups have our own channels. and vice verse with business and citizens ...if they going to let business utlize 1-7 and 8-22 gmrs ... release business pool to the citizens as licease free along with murs on vhf side...thats my complaint...i get tired hearing construction on gmrs when rules differ.
 

KC8ESL

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Ron36 -

The utopia you describe basically states I can legally use my modified ham radio to play on the GMRS/FRS band as long as I follow the PEP/ERP requirements. Is that what you mean?

Part of the Part 90 and part 95 compliance also has to do with out-of-band emissions and what lengths the vendors go through to suppress them. My ham radio wasn't certificated to meet these requirements and therefore is illegal on these bands.

...But I'm sure in the mayhem called life that happens out there, people use them (illegally I may add) and no one dies. Wow. What kills me is that you can have a Motorola XTS5000 (something that the US Secret Service employs in their arsenal of goodies) and yet it is technically illegal to use it on the GMRS band.

This is the stuff that I, as well as many other people want to see changed - to allow a part 90 radio in the band. Jdobbs, this is what I was referring to a few posts ago. Part 95 spectrum should allow Part 90 radios. They meet and exceed spectral purity standards but are capable of transmitting beyond the max power level. In the same flip of the coin, so are ham radio HF linear amps. You can buy an amplifier capable of 2.5kW or 3kW but it doesn't mean you can legally use it. Fix that problem and I'm sure more people will spring for the $85 license for 5 years.
 

slapshot0017

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CB and GMRS/FRS are the ones that are under used. Here's a thought, Why not just get an amateur radio license? If you're playing with radios why not get a better understanding of them. The test is based on basic physics and common sense and its $15 dollars for what 10 years? Is that really so terrible? I think they should revamp the rules to allow for at least say Part 90 maybe 10 watts on the FRS/GMRS spectrum, but that's pushing it. I don't think the argument holds enough water to really even consider this.

Question for the amateur's:
The USAF uses the amateur spectrum between 440-450? I would believe 420-440, but not the rest. I also thought that those were MARS and Civil Air Patrol used, but still why are they in the 440 spectrum and not the 200 mhz AM spectrum?
 

n5ims

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Why take the ham band space that is heavily used in many areas (although apparently not where the OP is). How about grabbing the old TV Channel 2 allocation and give that to the GMRS/FRS crowd. They want long range (not the 35 mile claim on the package, but some real range you can use) and the VHF-Low band (that 54 - 60 MHz should qualify as that) generally gives pretty good coverage (often nation wide when the skip is running in).

Since the migration to digital TV broadcasting, most stations are in the UHF band and those on VHF are generally having signal issues that get worse as the frequency gets lower so the few stations on channel 2 should be happy to move to a frequency that will give them better signal coverage.
 

WB4CS

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Taxpayers pay lots of taxes for FCC coffers yet we deserve a slice of this electromagnetic spectrum. give the people a 160 channel UHF band for personal/business use without all the redtape,licensing costs etc.
Could you elaborate on why we deserve free use spectrum, other than what we already have?

Using radio spectrum is a privilege, not a right. Even the license free (license-by-rule) bands are not guaranteed that someone has the right to use them. Ask anyone who's been fined by the FCC for misuse of those bands.
 

SCPD

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I'd have to give a no vote on this one, but would never discourage anyone's good ideas.

1. 50 watts without a license is a big fat NO in my book....too many problems from .5 watt FRS unlicensed now.

2. Don't know alot of HAMS that want to give up any part of the spectrum, don't blame them at all.

3. The notion that 70cm is under-used or "packed" is very subjective. We have a whole country to consider.

4. Same for GMRS. 8 Channls may seem to be wasted on rural areas...but packed in cities. And I think it is a little hard to judge when no one monitors all channels, 24hrs, in all areas to log air time.

If anything, I would like to see FRS gone. If you want to find 7 or 14 channels somewhere else in UHF for them....great. GMRS is used, and needs to be used right, rather than finding for every cause to have their own little spectrum section.
I agree 100% and I myself am tired of some people wishing away GMRS and it is usually the one who do not use it.If they want their own little piece of spectrum use your cell phone since they are radios also.
 
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