Crooks using radios to help evade LE detection/capture

[Hooligan]

In past discussions I've seen, many radio hobbyists (some pretty dumb themselves) downplay the possibility of criminals using scanners to help evade law enforcement by saying "most crooks are too stupid to know how to get, program & use a scanner."


While I certainly agree that most criminals are stupid, lazy people & ignorant of technology like scanners, I also believe that there are plenty of criminals who Do at least try to use scanners to help evade their arrest. I think it's a common enough occurrence that LE & thus the media don't make a big deal out of it when a criminal is caught with a scanner, and as a consequence, us radio-geeks & the public really don't know how prevalent it is. Plus of course, some crooks are certainly able to use communications-intelligence from a radio receiver effectively enough to avoid detection, investigation & arrest by law enforcement. and we don't know about them until they eventually get caught somehow.

As a young hooligan, I used a handheld scanner monitoring the local LE channels to avoid getting busted during low-level acts of juvenile delinquency, and several times when the police were dispatched to investigate the minor acts of mayhem I was committing, my associates & I were able to beat feet long before the po-po showed up, thanks to the scanner.


For the sake of discussion, let's assume we all do agree that it's the responsibility of the law enforcement agency to protect any sensitive information needing transmittal via RF, and they can do so via encryption, sophisticated codes, and/or using a communication method unlikely to be vulnerable to the estimated threat (Nextel, mobile data terminals, SMS), just like it's our own responsibility to give reasonable protection to our own assets (be it a social security #, or locking up your home before you leave for work).

Also, this isn't the thread for arguing about whether law enforcement encryption violates your Contitutional rights, is a waste of your taxpayers dollars, allows the police to conduct their new world order business without proper oversight, etc. I'd be happy to engage you in that debate in a thread you create.


Let's use this thread to share information on cases we've heard of (ideally with confirmed/verifiable info) where individuals or organizations did try to use information gathered from monitoring federal/state/joint/local law enforcement HF/VHF/UHF communication channels in order to avoid law enforcement.

 

[skip39]

that why police offiers dont like scanner geeks, because there are the few people that use a scanner to avoid detection. well one rotten eggs spoils it for the rest
ryan

 

[Hooligan]

Compton's Acacia Blocc Crips using scanners

This Wednesday, 29 September, the National Geographic Channel will re-air a documentary filmed this year & originally airing on 14 September called 'L.A. Gang Wars.'

At 24 minutes into the program, they start talking to members of the "Acacia Blocc Crips," a rather small gang operating in Compton, allied of course with other Crips. At 38 minutes into the documentary, the leader of this gang pulls out two Radio Shack handheld scanner radios (they look like PRO-95s) & talks about how he gets the "codes" (I assume that means frequencies as well as brevity codes used on the air) off the street & from friendly cops. The interviewer asks him outright if the scanner has ever helped him get away from the police & he matter of factly says yes. In other scenes, these thugs are proudly showing off their firearms, as well as about half a garbage-bag full of a dried, green leafy substance...


If you're in denial about low-level criminals using scanners, I hope you'll watch this program & find it educational.

Compton PD was disbanded in 2000 & the area is now patrolled by LASO. While I certainly hope LASO special units such as the gang squad rely on Nextels for the rapid transmittal of sensitive info, we all know that LASO's road patrol dispatch & car to car channels use non-secure voice. MDCs can be a covert way to dispatch units to a situation, but once the deputies are out on foot, perhaps chasing someone, possibly sensitive tactical info is going out via voice.


It's airing at 6 & 9PM PDT on the 29th of October, and then again at 11PM PDT on November 1st, 2008.


http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/inside/3477/Overview#tab-Overview

 

[hoser147]

I would guess that Cell phones are used in far more crimes than scanners, you can about bet most of the gangsters have a cellphone on them, why not go on the attack about those instead. This horse has been beaten hard, with the last sentence it makes me wonder if your not using this in a defense or for a class paper? Just wondering............Hoser

 

[WayneH]

Ok, after talking to the OP I don't see any nefarious reasoning behind the posting. I caught the episode on National Geographic - what spawned the idea of this thread - of the gang guy waving around the scanner and talking about how he has the "codes" in the scanner to listen to the cops. It was pathetic but so was the guy. I don't think he would understand much of the traffic to find having the scanner useful anyhow.

Please be nice people. Use thread reporting, not the thread itself, for your analysis of what a member may or not be.

 

[KB9NLL]

That sounds like the same episode I saw. Whether it is or not the one I saw the guy with the scanners heard over the scanners that the police were coming to the area (street/block?) and were able to take off as a few of them had outstanding warrents. So there goes the theory that they wouldn't understand the radio traffic anyways as moments later a squad showed up and started talking to the ones that stayed.:roll:

 

[davidbond21]

One of my old bosses, who was a licensed ham, was showing me his scanner one day years ago telling me about listening to the police, and how they used to listen very carefully when they'd have parties in a certain college town. One night, they heard TABC and local pd getting ready to come raid their house for a party with minors there. Somehow they were able to get everyone under 21 off the property and when the police showed up and demanded to be let in, they were, only to find 5 or 6 21+y.o. guys watching football.

This is actually one of the things that got me interested in getting my own scanner. I would also guess that Hooligan, back in his heyday of mischief, was probably just as interested in using the scanner to hear report of his mischief making over the airwaves as he was in using it to leave when the PD was alerted to said shenanigans.

I guess you could say that I'm a criminal, when I hear people getting pulled over ahead of me on the highway and I slow down accordingly: I'm using the scanner to evade law enforcement while I'm committing a crime(of speeding).

 

[qlajlu]

Edited!

 

[firetaz834]

In this post, the talk is about using a scanner but for anyone who use to listen to a CB radio, they did that all the time. They would report on the locations of local/county/state police and everyone would slow down accordingly. Heck, I still listen to a CB radio in my daily travels and it is still used to report on the location of law enforcement and people slow down to avoid getting a ticket.

 

[SCPD]

All of this needs to be balanced with the observation that a lot of people who listen to scanners get a view, or partially walk in others shoes, after using a scanner for a long term period. While buffs of various kinds are sometimes looked down upon, some due to their own behavior, they perform a valuable service by giving others a different perspective of various public safety activities. Often times it is the buffs that support public safety efforts in a political atmosphere.

For me, there were many factors that influenced my choice of a public service natural resource career, with listening to a scanner being one of those factors. Listening to a scanner gave me a perspective of respect for various public service careers. Some of the performance of public safety employees during critical incidents that I heard about on a scanner were later used as "creative visualizations" to improve my performance on incidents of an emergency or urgent nature, as well as my dealings with belligerent and potentially dangerous individuals who may have left their better judgment at home when going on vacation. In particular, I remember the calm radio demeanor of an LAPD motorcycle officer during a pursuit of three murder suspects who were firing at him involving speeds of 100 to 120 miles per hour. He sounded like he was sitting in a recliner in someone's living room talking about a book he picked up at the library. While taking a deep breath during many incidents I would briefly picture this officer sitting in the recliner in my living room and it helped keep my adrenaline valve closed. I would never have had that helpful image if I did not have a scanner.

Also left out are the people who listen to scanners to report things they see in relation to the incidents they hear of on a scanner. Here in the rural, and somewhat isolated, eastern Sierra region I live in, many suspects have been caught because someone with a scanner observed them and reported it. In rural areas like this, where a 24 hour news organization equipped with helicopters doesn't exist, scanners are important tools for receiving vital information about road conditions and closures, the effects of weather, and even for making decisions relative to nearby wildland fires.

I'm not saying that the negative aspects of scanners do not exist, but lets try to remember the very infrequently reported positive aspects as well.

 

[ScanManQSL]

I would guess that Cell phones are used in far more crimes than scanners, you can about bet most of the gangsters have a cellphone on them...

On several occasions while watching Cops or other Law Enforcement TV shows I have seen criminals getting caught with a Family Radio Service two-way radio in their possession. Not only criminals are using scanner, cell phone but they are also using FRS two-way radios so the other person can be the "look out person" as the other person is committing a crime.

 

[WayneH]

That sounds like the same episode I saw. Whether it is or not the one I saw the guy with the scanners heard over the scanners that the police were coming to the area (street/block?) and were able to take off as a few of them had outstanding warrents. So there goes the theory that they wouldn't understand the radio traffic anyways as moments later a squad showed up and started talking to the ones that stayed.:roll:

That sounds like it. I didn't see the connection with them running off and the scanner though. I believe they ran off because people keeping an eye out said something.

 

[RolnCode3]

In 6 years, I have run into 3 people with scanners.

Two guys using Por-95s were doing countersurveillence on us. But they weren't the subjects of the surveillence as far as we could determine.

The last was a car stop on a serial burglary pair. They had a BC60XLT with the batteries removed in the far back of the vehicle. Didn't appear they were using it at all (besides, we're on an 800 trunked system so it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference).

I've found FRS radios more than once, but never heard traffic on the channels prior to the stop. So, dunno if they were actually using them to further the criminal activity.

Cell phones are far and away used to coordinate the activities. A scanner will likely be seized on the first search, so they won't get a chance to hang onto it for too long (hopefully).

 

[APSN556]

I run a website that broadcasts 5 seperate live feeds of my cities police, fire and EMS services. ( www.flagscanner.com )The most recent feed I added was of the local university police department. Immediately I received a post in our forums from a person who wasnt too happy about my site. Here's his post, followed by my reply.

[[[So, I know this information is free and all to the public, but couldn't the argument be made that now criminals are going to be able to use this as a tool to help them continue their activities? I am not talking about big stuff. I am thinking more of students in their dorm rooms can listen to this while they smoke pot and know when an officer is coming to their place of residence. Same thing could be said for the city.

As for the argument that anyone can go get a scanner, I agree, but how many do? This just makes it easier now because someone can just stream. Plus, this would make it easier for people to know codes, again making them more aware if the police would be coming after them, and to some extent how long they have to get away.]]]

MY REPLY...

++++ Thanks for writing!

When I started this site, I shared the same concerns you do. In fact I put off doing the whole project entirely for 2 years until a dear friend of mine who happens to be a Police Officer with the city of Flagstaff told me it would actually be a good thing.

My main drive behind this whole thing is to hopefully make the citizens of Flagstaff more fully comprehend just what exactly our brave men and women do on a day to day basis. Our tax dollars are not going towards people who simply wear a badge and pull others over for speeding all day. I want this site to not only be a pleasurable pastime for those who are curious, but also as an insight to what the real job description is of the Police fire and EMS workers... To save lives. ++++

 

[SAR923]

I have a few years on Bill on the street and I saw criminals with scanners maybe 6 or 7 times. There was one time I know for sure the bad guy had used the scanner to evade us while committing a crime and he got caught the next day when he didn't realize that he was in another LASO beat and not listening to the right frequency. Other than that, the scanners I saw were incidental and, if they were supposed to be used to monitor our traffic, they either didn't have the right frequencies or didn't work at all. All except one of the scanners was stolen so it's not like the thugs were lining up at Radio Shack to buy the latest scanner.

If we're talking major felonies here, scanner owners in any large city are not going to hear any details on their scanners. The vast majority of that kind of traffic is handled by Nextel walkie talkies and MDC's. Yes, a college beer bash may be able to utilize a scanner to know the cops are coming (assuming anyone is sober enough to be listening) but that's small time stuff to us. We have many ways to communicate when investigating or doing surveillance on criminals planning armed robberies or drug deals and I can assure you that neither they nor any scanner owner is going to know what's happening from listening to any RF.

The biggest problem we had was convincing the brass that an unmarked Crown Vic, no matter what color or even with hidden antennas, was going to be spotted by these bad guys quicker than listening to the radio. Most thugs worth their salt can spot an undercover unit about 10 seconds after they see it.

 

[RayAir]

I would guess the more professional criminals would use scanners, but police can dispatch using MDT's or Nextel's with the MDT being more secure if they don't have digital encryption in their radios.

 

[Forts]

Several years ago I was living in a moderate sized city of about 50,000 who's PD at the time was on conventional VHF. One night I heard them respond to an alarm call at a tractor/farm supply dealership. Upon arrival it was obvious that a B&E was in progress and the suspects were already fleeing. One of the pursuing officers came on and said 'they have scanners!'.... they ended up catching the guys, but sure enough more than one of them had scanners on their person. Within 2 to 3 years the PD had switched from analog VHF to a trunked EDACS Provoice system. While I'm sure this one incident wasn't the deciding factor, it sure makes a good case point when trying to sell city council on the price of a secure radio system.

 

[wannabescannist]

What kills me is how a lot of people regard criminals as (technically) dumb.

So if you're a radio geek you're obviously not a criminal? And vice versa? I beg to differ.

Not pointing any fingers but I'm sure some of you guys on here have used a scanner to at least have the upper hand in the commission of not necessarily a crime but of sinister activity.

 

[slicerwizard]

Please be nice people. Use thread reporting, not the thread itself, for your analysis of what a member may or not be.

The OP set the tone with his unfounded comments about dumb hobbyists in denial. He thinks that because he's used a scanner to give LE the slip, it's a common occurrence. Clearly, he's in denial.

 

[Taloniilm]

The "Texas Seven", (prison escapees) used a hand held scanner and the Radio Shack Police Call book while on their crime spree.