Dallas City Local Government

[riverradio68]

The difference between how Dallas and Houston use the radio is day and night. Dallas is used to 12 channel every day all the time and simply toggling to the B side for unit to unit. Houston has been on a relatively sophisticated trunked network of some kind for several years.

From what I understand DFR got a hell of a lot more radio training than Police. But then again, the Radio people can go sit in air conditioned fire houses and do the training. Police just cannot logically pull in officers for several hours of radio training. If they did and crime found out about it, building would burn and bodies would cease to breath.

 

[hiegtx]

From what I understand DFR got a hell of a lot more radio training than Police. But then again, the Radio people can go sit in air conditioned fire houses and do the training. Police just cannot logically pull in officers for several hours of radio training. If they did and crime found out about it, building would burn and bodies would cease to breath.

You might be right about insufficient training. But I will say this:
Neither Dallas Fire Rescue nor Dallas PD are anywhere close to using the communication capabilities of the new system.

DFR is mainly using it as if it was still on the old Uhf system. We have two (apparently) dispatch TGIDs for Fire Equipment, Dallas Fire 1 & Dallas Fire 2. There are also two designated dispatch TGIDs for EMS, Dallas FD EMS 1 & Dallas FD EMS 2. But DFR is using the Dallas Fire 2 as dispatch for rescues (EMS), just like the two channels on the old system.

There are four designated Tac channels, presumably for fireground usage, Tac A through Tac D. But instead, they are treating EMS-2 as "channel 4", and using that for fireground comms. I still hear (when in range) the old Simplex Fireground channel.

I do, occasionally, see one of the two Biotel TGIDs used, but not regularly. On the old system, you almost never heard anything specific for Biotel, so they may have been using the common Uhf set of Bio channels, 463.000 to 463.175, pr else cell phones. They may still be using cellphones. On the Tarrant County side, you have dedicated. assigned, TGIDs for just about all of the hospitals in that county.

 

[Stephen]

UPDATE 6pm

I just spoke to a high-level person at the County DA’s office (who shall for the moment in this email remain unnamed, but he’s big 😊 )

He told me (in summary):

After the City of Dallas got hit with a ransomware attack, which delayed - and is still impacting - the deployment of Project 25 comms, County IT guys /gals said, OH HELL we’re in trouble.

They are now in the process of ENCRYPTING ALL Dallas County comms, which will take about 30 to 60 days.

Only after it’s all encrypted will they release the TGID list that I asked for a few weeks ago (and they are now asking the AG to block access to).

Of course, that’s gonna leave a lot of dead air out there, and probably a bunch of useless scanners (at least on the Dallas County level).

Personally, I am staying with Dallas Police / Fire stuff, which supposedly won’t be encrypted on the basic channels (as per an email earlier this year from an Assistant City Manager)

And of course, this now means we will be getting into a First Amendment fight – ergo, how does the media get access to these comms?

I am preparing my rebuttal to the DA letter to the AG, but it’s kinda moot for now. I need to regroup and figure out the next steps.

The media does not have a “right” to hear live communication. If an agency records their comms then you have a right to ask for a copy and it can be produced within the requested time frame. If an agency encrypts all channels, there is no precedent legally to giving radio access. Some agencies have chosen voluntarily to do so, but are not required. Just because you received a settlement for photography does not mean you are a first amendment expert all of the sudden.

 

[AviAdelman]

The media does not have a “right” to hear live communication. If an agency records their comms then you have a right to ask for a copy and it can be produced within the requested time frame. If an agency encrypts all channels, there is no precedent legally to giving radio access. Some agencies have chosen voluntarily to do so, but are not required. Just because you received a settlement for photography does not mean you are a first amendment expert all of the sudden.

You are technically correct - the media does not have a 'right' to comms. There were no police radios back when the Constitution was written (I grew up in Philly - trust me on this).

However, there is the concept of transparency - let me focus on the Dallas Police Department.

Chief Slick Eddy has been trying to shut down the Active Incidents page (which feeds data to my DallasPoliceWatch.com page) for years. He claims too many people come out to crime scenes and interfere with the officers.

Bull. I pulled three years worth of data on arrests for interfering with officers or causing a disturbance at crime scenes. Less than one person per month was put in the pokey, and 90% of them were part of the original incident. Slick does not want the public seeing his officers getting out of control.

Example: Last week, at a crime scene, an officer tried to rip me a new anal orifice because I had the unmitigated chutzpah to hold a crime scene tape so it would not flap in front of my lens. He just ripped into me for (his words) pushing the boundaries of the public access, breaking the law for interfering with the scene, and yes, he told me I was a ****ty person.

Did I mention he was not wearing a (required) bodycam? Did I mention his badge and name were blocked by his arms? Did I mention that the chief for his division is going to public rip him a new ******* at a staff meeting this week?

I can tell you from being at hundreds of crime scenes on residential streets that NO ONE COMES OUT when the bubble-gum lights are hot.
Transparency is a word so overused by gov't folks, but in the end they don't care. Dallas has fine-tuned the art of ignoring of delaying open record requests to a damn science. Forget 10 business days, try 10 months for some of the complicated ones that are research for embarrassing stories in the media.

You know how cops will stop your car and say, Hey, let us inspect your car and if it's clean, you can leave. I mean, really, if you are not hiding anything, what are you worried about? That's when you better say, Nope, get a damn warrant.

Same with transparency on radio comms - If you have nothing to hide, why can't we hear them / get the TGID list, etc (exempting SWAT comms of course)?

 

[riverradio68]

You might be right about insufficient training. But I will say this:
Neither Dallas Fire Rescue nor Dallas PD are anywhere close to using the communication capabilities of the new system.

DFR is mainly using it as if it was still on the old Uhf system. We have two (apparently) dispatch TGIDs for Fire Equipment, Dallas Fire 1 & Dallas Fire 2. There are also two designated dispatch TGIDs for EMS, Dallas FD EMS 1 & Dallas FD EMS 2. But DFR is using the Dallas Fire 2 as dispatch for rescues (EMS), just like the two channels on the old system.

There are four designated Tac channels, presumably for fireground usage, Tac A through Tac D. But instead, they are treating EMS-2 as "channel 4", and using that for fireground comms. I still hear (when in range) the old Simplex Fireground channel.

I do, occasionally, see one of the two Biotel TGIDs used, but not regularly. On the old system, you almost never heard anything specific for Biotel, so they may have been using the common Uhf set of Bio channels, 463.000 to 463.175, pr else cell phones. They may still be using cellphones. On the Tarrant County side, you have dedicated. assigned, TGIDs for just about all of the hospitals in that county.

Totally agree with you on how little DFR is using the new system. I'm sure over time that will change. Jeez DFR has been on VHF and UHF since Motorola started selling radios. I'm sure its just the unfamiliarity of modern communications systems. Personally, I think both DFR and DPD Patrol could have continued to operate conventional UHF just fine leaving specialized units to the trunking system. If they had taken the three back-up fire repeaters and turned those into Fireground comms I think they would have been just fine. I don't think NTIRN is giving them the coverage the UHF did. Of course the original plans called for a massive wireless network which would have operated like a seamless cellular network. Houston has that in a nutshell. If Dallas or NTIRN absorbed the cities in Dallas Co. and built one single system they might have had better coverage.

I've heard Air Evac giving patient reports on the Dallas Med TGID so I'd have to guess its as you think and the Med-10 UHF is patched to the 700.

Is Dallas NTIRN ever going to function like Ft. Worth? Hard to say in the short term. I'd have thought we would have seen triple the TGID's than what we have found already. I figured Hospitals, Schools, State users would have showed up by now. Really starting to second guess the department managing the Dallas side of the system.

 

[hiegtx]

Is Dallas NTIRN ever going to function like Ft. Worth? Hard to say in the short term. I'd have thought we would have seen triple the TGID's than what we have found already. I figured Hospitals, Schools, State users would have showed up by now. Really starting to second guess the department managing the Dallas side of the system.

I think, once the additional TGIDs for DPD sections other than just patrol & traffic are entered into the database, PD will be more provisioned. I went through the list & used the "display" shorthand for each TGID for various city departments, including PD. I ended up with 70 TGIDs for various PD departments, not counting the default tac & talk groups assigned to each patrol division. I also translated a large number of non-public safety departments.

I'm a bit surprised at only the 4 Tac TGIDs (Tac A thru Tac D) for DFR, presumably for firegrounds, even though so far, they are not being actively used. On the other hand, some cities go overboard. Take a look at Forest Hill. They have eleven TGIDs for Fire Talk, and 8 for PD Talk. Plus, those have a shadow set of the same for use on Tarrant County Layer 1. Do they even have that many people on a shift? I can't think of anything for a smaller city such as Forest Hill (population just under 14,000 as of the 2021 census) that would need anywhere near that many TGIDs.

 

[Harold]

I think, once the additional TGIDs for DPD sections other than just patrol & traffic are entered into the database, PD will be more provisioned. I went through the list & used the "display" shorthand for each TGID for various city departments, including PD. I ended up with 70 TGIDs for various PD departments, not counting the default tac & talk groups assigned to each patrol division. I also translated a large number of non-public safety departments.

I'm a bit surprised at only the 4 Tac TGIDs (Tac A thru Tac D) for DFR, presumably for firegrounds, even though so far, they are not being actively used. On the other hand, some cities go overboard. Take a look at Forest Hill. They have eleven TGIDs for Fire Talk, and 8 for PD Talk. Plus, those have a shadow set of the same for use on Tarrant County Layer 1. Do they even have that many people on a shift? I can't think of anything for a smaller city such as Forest Hill (population just under 14,000 as of the 2021 census) that would need anywhere near that many TGIDs.

Well, Rome wasn't built in a Day, remember the system just came online a few months ago. I am sure they are still tinkering with the bells and whistles, and making command level decisions on where to put things. Slowly I am hearing DPD on the Interop channels, some coverts on a task force, DPD Air 1 has come up a couple times on police chases. Seems word of mouth works best with the elements, they tell each other of their discoveries they find on the radios and it spreads. I love it when they come up on the Interop channels and I can capture a RID or two, then track them to their home Talk Group.

That Forest Hill example has had me baffled since the P25 system went up, seeing how smaller cities have fewer TGs. I was listening to the Emergency Drill with North Richland Hills and Birdville ISD a couple weeks ago, and my take was that they need to rename and reassign some TGs for specific purposes. Maybe even add a few, and the ISD needs to be on P25 instead of DMR.

 

[Linn]

Totally agree with you on how little DFR is using the new system. I'm sure over time that will change. Jeez DFR has been on VHF and UHF since Motorola started selling radios. I'm sure its just the unfamiliarity of modern communications systems. Personally, I think both DFR and DPD Patrol could have continued to operate conventional UHF just fine leaving specialized units to the trunking system. If they had taken the three back-up fire repeaters and turned those into Fireground comms I think they would have been just fine. I don't think NTIRN is giving them the coverage the UHF did. Of course the original plans called for a massive wireless network which would have operated like a seamless cellular network. Houston has that in a nutshell. If Dallas or NTIRN absorbed the cities in Dallas Co. and built one single system they might have had better coverage.

I've heard Air Evac giving patient reports on the Dallas Med TGID so I'd have to guess its as you think and the Med-10 UHF is patched to the 700.

Is Dallas NTIRN ever going to function like Ft. Worth? Hard to say in the short term. I'd have thought we would have seen triple the TGID's than what we have found already. I figured Hospitals, Schools, State users would have showed up by now. Really starting to second guess the department managing the Dallas side of the system.

Change is hard and takes time. When my city (small compared to Dallas) moved to NTIRN there was grumbling amongst the guys. Now when we have to go to our backup VHF there is grumbling because it doesn't provide the same coverage.

From experience I can tell you that the Dallas layers on NTIRN provide better coverage than the UHF system. The footprint of the interop talkgroups expanded tremendously with the addition of the Dallas layers.

You can second guess the "department managing the Dallas side of the system", but you have you remember they can only do so much. In the end system users use the system the way they want no matter what capabilities it has.

 

[Linn]

Well, Rome wasn't built in a Day, remember the system just came online a few months ago. I am sure they are still tinkering with the bells and whistles, and making command level decisions on where to put things. Slowly I am hearing DPD on the Interop channels, some coverts on a task force, DPD Air 1 has come up a couple times on police chases. Seems word of mouth works best with the elements, they tell each other of their discoveries they find on the radios and it spreads. I love it when they come up on the Interop channels and I can capture a RID or two, then track them to their home Talk Group.

You're right about word of mouth. People can be trained on interop, but until they see it in real world use they don't fully understand it. I have a video I use when doing IO training. The video is from the early days of NTIRN. Grand Prairie had a chase that went into Fort Worth where the actor bailed and fled on foot along the Trinity River bottoms. GP patched their talkgroup with IO. When GP officers got out of their vehicles they had issues with their handheld radios going out of range. DPS 101 arrived on scene a short time later and educated the GP officers about changing to IO. As soon as they switched to IO on their radios their comms cleared up. The actor was taken into custody a short time later with 101 directing the GP officers to where the subject was hiding in the brush. After that incident there seemed to be an increase in GP understanding and using IO. It's still all new for the new Dallas agencies. Give it time.

 

[blantonl]

Well, ain't this funny.

The Dallas Sheriff's Office replied to my request for the TGID list.

"This email is to notify you that no records exist. Your request has been closed."

An hour later, the District Attorney's office, which handles open records requests for the County, replied.

They have filed a request with the TX Attorney General, to wit:

Through the Civil Division of the Dallas County Criminal District Attorney’s Office, the County timely requests a decision from your Office.

Dallas County seeks your opinion regarding the disclosure of some of the requested information that may be subject to one or more of the exceptions set forth in §418.179 of the Texas Public Information Act, including the confidentiality provisions contained in other applicable constitutional or statutory provisions, laws, or judicial decisions.

Unbelievable! The AG has 45 days to reply, but I will file a rebuttal to their denial in the next few days.

So much fun, so little time.

It did this when the (then) new Bexar County / San Antonio ProVoice EDACS system went online about 20 years ago. The reason why I submitted an open records request was the entire system was shrouded in secrecy, including a lot of the procurement details., and the primary vendor (Dailey Wells) has a history of rather dubious processes to score contracts. For the final presentation to the city leadership, then MACOM and Dailey Wells brought in William Shatner to give the final brief in a star trek themed proposed command center. It was quite over the top.

Being a new resident of San Antonio at that time, and having extensive background in large IT project management, I wanted to see project details. So I submitted open records requests with the City/County. They mounted a good fight to keep everything under wraps. I met multiple times with city attornies to negotiate on all the stuff, but they submitted exemtions for just about everything to Hot Wheels, who was then the attorney general. You can probably guess where this went on Hot Wheel's end:

Abbott Open Records Letter Ruling OR2004-3066

But they funny thing was, after the ruling was finalized, and the city gathered for me all the documents that were allowed to be released, they called me up and told me "hey, we have everything ready for you, bring a check for $350 bucks for reproduction costs and come pick up your documents." I picked up 4 boxes of photocopies which literally included just about everything I requested in the first place. Including everything they spent months arguing I couldn't have. LOL!

Of course, the system ended up being massively delayed, had enormous technical problems, and was deployed on an infrastructure that wasn't standards based but instead wildly proprietary.

 

[kmartin]

It did this when the (then) new Bexar County / San Antonio ProVoice EDACS system went online about 20 years ago. The reason why I submitted an open records request was the entire system was shrouded in secrecy, including a lot of the procurement details., and the primary vendor (Dailey Wells) has a history of rather dubious processes to score contracts. For the final presentation to the city leadership, then MACOM and Dailey Wells brought in William Shatner to give the final brief in a star trek themed proposed command center. It was quite over the top.

Being a new resident of San Antonio at that time, and having extensive background in large IT project management, I wanted to see project details. So I submitted open records requests with the City/County. They mounted a good fight to keep everything under wraps. I met multiple times with city attornies to negotiate on all the stuff, but they submitted exemtions for just about everything to Hot Wheels, who was then the attorney general. You can probably guess where this went on Hot Wheel's end:

Abbott Open Records Letter Ruling OR2004-3066

But they funny thing was, after the ruling was finalized, and the city gathered for me all the documents that were allowed to be released, they called me up and told me "hey, we have everything ready for you, bring a check for $350 bucks for reproduction costs and come pick up your documents." I picked up 4 boxes of photocopies which literally included just about everything I requested in the first place. Including everything they spent months arguing I couldn't have. LOL!

Of course, the system ended up being massively delayed, had enormous technical problems, and was deployed on an infrastructure that wasn't standards based but instead wildly proprietary.

WOW ! Talk about going the distance !

 

[nd5y]

MACOM and Dailey Wells brought in William Shatner to give the final brief in a star trek themed proposed command center. It was quite over the top.

I remember the same type of video I think it was for the old RACOM EDACS system in Iowa.

 

[AviAdelman]

OMG Terrorists are everywhere...

The Dallas County DA has submitted a supplement to its original denial of access to the County's TGID list.

And, damn, they are afraid of (checks notes) terrorists.



I'll just post the letter and pull this best quote out. Flak away.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Information Sought is Protected from Disclosure Under Texas Government Code Section 418.179 – Confidentiality of Certain Encryption Codes and Security Keys for Communications System. Texas Government Code Section 418.179 excepts from public disclosure “information that is collected, assembled, or maintained by or for a governmental entity for the purpose of preventing, detecting, or investigating an act of terrorism or related criminal activity that relates to the details of the encryption codes or security keys for a public communication system.” Tex. Gov’t Code Section 418.179.

Dallas County specifically asserts that Exhibit B contains Dallas County radio communications channels, which encompass a variety of communications between many departments in Dallas County, including law enforcement agencies. Dallas county submits that this information should not be made available to the public due to safety concerns. The requested information offers a potential gateway into the security keys for the Dallas County communications system.

If this information is released, people could potentially obtain the security keys and tamper with communications between law enforcement agencies and other Dallas County entities. People could also spread misinformation in regard to events that require the attention of law enforcement. Furthermore, lots of privileged and confidential information is communicated on the radio communications channels, including but not limited to NCIS/TCIS criminal history information, information involving sexual assault victims, motor vehicle registration information, driver’s license numbers, dates of birth, and medical information.

 

[IAmSixNine]

Sounds like they dont know the difference between a Talk Group and an Encryption Key.
Yes i would like a list of the Talk Groups.
You may not have the list of encryption keys.
Oh can i get a large coke,
NO our ice cream machine is broken.

 

[Harold]

Their argument is laughable and doesn't hold water.
1. The frequencies these P25 radio systems operate on are readily available to the public via the FCC License Database and the well known and established database offered by Radio Reference. Surely if the talkgroups were true to be a gateway the frequencies would also be a gateway to the security keys. But they are publicly available.

2.It is already unlawful to hack encrypted radio signals. This is an established deterrent to the act being described.

3.Using a supercomputer, a “brute force” attack would take one billion years to crack AES 128-bit encryption.

4. There are No known cases of AES encryption being successfully hacked to date.

5. If there were anyone attempting to hack the encryption. The "Key" is easily changed or updated through "OTA" Over the Air rekeying. Which should hopefully be already being done on a regular cycle.

6. Acquiring the Talk Group numbers is very easy with off the shelf scanners or software readily available on the internet. The request is only asking for the names the County is assigning to those talkgroup numbers that makes them easier to identify. We can get the TG numbers easy enough and give them our own names, but why not have the ones the county uses. This is a simple and reasonable request.

 

[riverradio68]

"Let em go Creuzot" And Avi if you were a homeless thug slinging dope on the streets he would have handed you encryption keys along with everything else you forgot to ask for.

Question on NTIRN Dallas. Are all the "Encrypted" TG's truly encrypted or are they really baby E's " e "? I see some encrypted TG's (Specifically love field A and a DFR ID) are tied to a audio feed, that is a no no at last check, can't stream dedicated encrypted channels. So is Love A semi encrypted, if so can that be dropped to a baby e? Also, Love field is doubled in the section its listed in. Its just below Traffic and then further down, fyi.

The Dallas Radio guy had said way back when I was bugging him about the 6 channel that the use of Encryption keys was going to be paramount. I guess each unit has their own set of keys for their ID's and in the event they have to do some joint venture, rather than saying go to TAC-9, Go to Key 11 was more less the concept. With that said, could they be Open guard and Encrypted for ops?

Any clue where Cockrell Hill is going to land in the mix? What is "SE" on DISD? Special Events?

What's happening with DSO? Still not seeing too many RID's and not hearing any of the Jails. Are Jails to be encrypted also?

 

[AviAdelman]

"Let em go Creuzot" And Avi if you were a homeless thug slinging dope on the streets he would have handed you encryption keys along with everything else you forgot to ask for.

WTF??? Really?

Question on NTIRN Dallas. Are all the "Encrypted" TG's truly encrypted or are they really baby E's " e "? I see some encrypted TG's (Specifically love field A and a DFR ID) are tied to a audio feed, that is a no no at last check, can't stream dedicated encrypted channels. So is Love A semi encrypted, if so can that be dropped to a baby e? Also, Love field is doubled in the section its listed in. Its just below Traffic and then further down, fyi.

I don't monitor Love Field, and I would not know the difference between Big E's and Little E's

The Dallas Radio guy had said way back when I was bugging him about the 6 channel that the use of Encryption keys was going to be paramount. I guess each unit has their own set of keys for their ID's and in the event they have to do some joint venture, rather than saying go to TAC-9, Go to Key 11 was more less the concept. With that said, could they be Open guard and Encrypted for ops?

From what officers have told me on the street, they have not been given the keys to anything, let alone a list of what channels are for what activities. Maybe that will filter down later.

Any clue where Cockrell Hill is going to land in the mix? What is "SE" on DISD? Special Events?

I don't monitor Cockrell Hill. Re DISD, I have not seen their list (yet) - if you have it, let's share. FWIW Dallas PD spells out Special Events on their TGID list.

What's happening with DSO? Still not seeing too many RID's and not hearing any of the Jails. Are Jails to be encrypted also?

I only have a few DSO TGID's Again, if you have the list, please share it. The DSO claims they are going to encrypt everything before they release the list to me.

 

[Harold]

"Let em go Creuzot" And Avi if you were a homeless thug slinging dope on the streets he would have handed you encryption keys along with everything else you forgot to ask for.

Question on NTIRN Dallas. Are all the "Encrypted" TG's truly encrypted or are they really baby E's " e "? I see some encrypted TG's (Specifically love field A and a DFR ID) are tied to a audio feed, that is a no no at last check, can't stream dedicated encrypted channels. So is Love A semi encrypted, if so can that be dropped to a baby e? Also, Love field is doubled in the section its listed in. Its just below Traffic and then further down, fyi.

The Dallas Radio guy had said way back when I was bugging him about the 6 channel that the use of Encryption keys was going to be paramount. I guess each unit has their own set of keys for their ID's and in the event they have to do some joint venture, rather than saying go to TAC-9, Go to Key 11 was more less the concept. With that said, could they be Open guard and Encrypted for ops?

Any clue where Cockrell Hill is going to land in the mix? What is "SE" on DISD? Special Events?

What's happening with DSO? Still not seeing too many RID's and not hearing any of the Jails. Are Jails to be encrypted also?

This is the list of Feeds available though Broadcastify. Do not know where you are seeing these other audio feeds. But their Terms of Service may be different than Broadcastifys.

Even with the latest release of Talkgroup names released, there are still a lot of active encrypted TGs that have not been identified. Many of those may be DSO and the Jails.

Seriously doubt they are handing out Keys to anyone in the field, and I think that radio guys information was a little misconstrued. The DPD structure is not completely like Fort Worths but there are similarities. Yeah, they may have a detail that needs their own channel, but they are already encrypted, why would they need another layer?

 

[AviAdelman]

This is the list of Feeds available though Broadcastify. Do not know where you are seeing these other audio feeds. But their Terms of Service may be different than Broadcastifys.

Even with the latest release of Talkgroup names released, there are still a lot of active encrypted TGs that have not been identified. Many of those may be DSO and the Jails.

Seriously doubt they are handing out Keys to anyone in the field, and I think that radio guys information was a little misconstrued. The DPD structure is not completely like Fort Worths but there are similarities. Yeah, they may have a detail that needs their own channel, but they are already encrypted, why would they need another layer?

These are the old 'analog' feeds for Dallas PD. Right now, they are just repeating the new Project 25 Dispatch feeds, but eventually they will go buh-bye.

I submitted a list of Dallas TGID feeds to this site, and most of them were added to the database, back in June.

If you have TGIDs for DSO or DISD, let's see them

 

[Russell]

I'm not averse to changing it back to Non-E and/or making a Dispatch rather than Tac channel. The 'source' had all these channels marked as 'Secure' tough it does not specify part-time or full time. I've heard some that are not secure, as well.
Please provide updates if you hear any of these channels in the clear, etc.