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N_Jay
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P25 Trunking IS 9600 BPS.
You would have a very hard time buying a new 3600 BPS (Smartnet) system today.
You would have a very hard time buying a new 3600 BPS (Smartnet) system today.
Dane County: P25 VHF trunking
- Thread starter biglaz
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No minutes have been posted from the last meetings yet, although new meetings are scheduled. To answer an earlier question, there was a comment from, I believe, either John Murray or Joe Sallak from Federal Engineering (doing the study for the county), that the new Dane Co hybrid VHF/800MHz P25 system will be "compatible" with the State of Wisconsin's new hybrid VHF/800MHz P25 system. The SIEC (State Interoperability Executive Council) has started this process; it's not completed. The last few years the State Patrol concept tested a system that's now really inactive (see frequencies in http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7646/WSPTRS.htm --I've not heard any activity for ages). See http://www.winena.org/SIEC/SIECTechPlanCoverLetter_6-12--06.pdf for intent, but especially see http://siec.wi.gov/docview.asp?docid=9470 for the current document that clearly states the long-term goal of a Statewide hybrid VHF/700/800MHz P25 system. Go to the Document Library publications at the SIEC home page http://siec.wi.gov/ for a few more items of interest, too.
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The plan is to get the whole state interoperable via VHF P25 trunking. They've been handing grants out to get people to buy and reprogram radios for interoperability, as well as locating sites and building infrastructure for communications. It is not amazing that Dane County is considering a P25 VHF rebuild, as that is the goal in the future.
They (the State) are handing out millions in 75/25 and matching grants for new radios.
There is a caveat in the grant iteslf; the radio must be not less than 16 channels, it must be VHF, and it must be APCO P25 compliant. There is a reason.
Check out http://siec.wi.gov/ and http://165.189.80.115/subcategory.asp?linksubcatid=1586&linkcatid=1315&linkid=708&locid=97
They (the State) are handing out millions in 75/25 and matching grants for new radios.
There is a caveat in the grant iteslf; the radio must be not less than 16 channels, it must be VHF, and it must be APCO P25 compliant. There is a reason.
Check out http://siec.wi.gov/ and http://165.189.80.115/subcategory.asp?linksubcatid=1586&linkcatid=1315&linkid=708&locid=97
Most recent minutes now show that the RFP draft is progressing. Surprise, the powers that be want a P25 Phase II implementation included in the contract. I have not seen any updates that indicate what P25 Phase II specifications will be decided upon--or when. Geesh. Does that mean an OpenSky or iDEN initial implementation (closest thing to P25 Phase II thoughts with two TDMA slots)?? I sure hope not! If so, it would likely be contrary to the state SIEC plans, but who knows--perhaps political associations with crank the decision. It would be wise to do a P25 Phase I implementation with migration to P25 Phase II once standards are finalized--the minutes show some sanity with one statement to that effect. Anyone have any updates of P25 Phase II standards?
I work for Capitol PD in Madison. We are in the process of jumping on Madison's trunked system. We are just waiting for what radios that we will be purchasing.
We are supposed to be up and running pretty soon. We will keep UHF as backup for now.
Per managment, the radios have to be P25 compliant in order to get the federal funds. That doesn't mean that Dane is going digital, but the radios have to be able to switch over in the future if needed. A department doesn't want to spend $3500 on a portable radio that will be no good in a couple years.
Dane Co will supposedly be a hybrid system. City of Madison will stay 800. I know UWPD has 800 radios and I was told that they will be also leasing space from the city's system. I'm not sure if any municipal departments other than Monona will be jumping on it.
We are supposed to be up and running pretty soon. We will keep UHF as backup for now.
Per managment, the radios have to be P25 compliant in order to get the federal funds. That doesn't mean that Dane is going digital, but the radios have to be able to switch over in the future if needed. A department doesn't want to spend $3500 on a portable radio that will be no good in a couple years.
Dane Co will supposedly be a hybrid system. City of Madison will stay 800. I know UWPD has 800 radios and I was told that they will be also leasing space from the city's system. I'm not sure if any municipal departments other than Monona will be jumping on it.
Yep, sounds about right with all the changes. Dane's plans are that it will be going digital. (BTW, say hi to cpd42 for me--been a while talking to him since I retired from the state--saw him last at DOC on an IT case.) My most recent question is more in regard to P25 Phase I vs II equipment--if approved standards even exist yet for the P25 Phase II--I don't think so, but wondering if anyone else has that info. If the county gets its undies in a bundle wanting Phase II capability, that might torque the RFP response a bit. http://www.project25.org doesn't say anything more about Phase II than it's "in development."
I'll say hi to Mitch for you
MMIC
Member
laggroup said:
The minimum needs to be more than 16 channels. From my experience, if they are planning on setting up any sort of interoperability talk group sets, they will eat those 16 channels up very quickly. Everywhere I have seen struggles with a minimum of 48.
MMIC said:
Agreed. Look at the .pdf for the current list on page 18, which is way more than 16 channels. Page 20 shows importance by discipline.
http://siec.wi.gov/docview.asp?docid=6715
MMIC said:
No argument from me. I was reading the grant requirements, which stated that they would provide funding for programming radios provided that they were not less than 16 channels. We bit the bullet and picked up 10 of those Kenwood P25 VHF portables instead of dealing with reprogramming, which wouldn't have worked anyways.
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N_Jay
Guest
laggroup said:
It's a minimum. Thats all.
Here's an update from the last meeting of the Public Safety Communications Center
Board minutes of their 6/20/2007 meeting, just posted on Dane County's public web
site. It looks like it'll be a while for the new system, but the RFP may come out this
October. They're still talking about many of the same issues ... :
INTEROPERABLE VOICE RADIO COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEM:
McVicar reported that he met Tuesday afternoon with the County Executive’s Chief
of Staff, the Sheriff, the Chief Deputy and the County Controller. Ongoing costs for
the new radio system are estimated at $1.2 to $2.4 million per year depending on
the level of in-house versus contracted operations and maintenance.
The County Executive has considered four options for dealing with these high costs:
County funding of all costs and immediate RFP release; three or four months of
internal efforts to work out cost sharing prior to RFP release; up to a year of formal
efforts involving a consultant to work out cost sharing prior to RFP release; and the
scaling back of the project to include only the mandatory components of county
equipment replacement and narrowbanding. The County Executive is aware of the
Center Board’s desire to release the RFP immediately, and promptly work out cost
sharing as the procurement process unfolds. The County Executive is also aware of
desires by many users that the County fully fund user subscriber equipment and
infrastructure operating and maintenance costs.
The County is committed to fund a $30 million infrastructure, understanding the
debt service will amount to $2.5 million per year for twenty years. The County
does not want to give up on this project. The County does not favor RFP release
without some cost sharing in place, and is willing to fund a consultant to ensure the
needed steps occur quickly and accurately. The County Executive asks that the
Center Board support formal efforts with a consultant in order to work out cost
sharing prior to RFP release.
Pickering noted that the Dane County Fire Chiefs Association, the Dane County
Chiefs of Police Association, the Dane County EMS Association, the Dane County
Cities and Villages Association and the Dane County Towns Association are in the
process of passing resolutions to empower their respective leadership to bring
forward their common concerns and recommendations regarding project
infrastructure, subscriber and operating cost funding.
Salov moved, seconded by Gloede, that: The Public Safety Communications Center
Board supports the concept to move forward in an expedited fashion to bring a
consultant on board to work with an ad hoc regional governance subcommittee of
the Center Board; with participation from the Dane County Fire Chiefs Association,
the Dane County Chiefs of Police Association, the Dane County EMS Association,
the Dane County Cities and Villages Association and the Dane County Towns
Association; such that the RFP is released no later than October 1, 2007. Motion
carried.
McVicar advised that the Technology Committee planned to create a sub-group to
craft an outreach message to potential system users and municipalities. User
agencies needing to purchase subscriber equipment and needing guidance would
be provided a letter from PSC with those details. A letter has been drafted, but is
perhaps best held for a couple more weeks and released with the latest details on
the project plan and timeline.
Board minutes of their 6/20/2007 meeting, just posted on Dane County's public web
site. It looks like it'll be a while for the new system, but the RFP may come out this
October. They're still talking about many of the same issues ... :
INTEROPERABLE VOICE RADIO COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEM:
McVicar reported that he met Tuesday afternoon with the County Executive’s Chief
of Staff, the Sheriff, the Chief Deputy and the County Controller. Ongoing costs for
the new radio system are estimated at $1.2 to $2.4 million per year depending on
the level of in-house versus contracted operations and maintenance.
The County Executive has considered four options for dealing with these high costs:
County funding of all costs and immediate RFP release; three or four months of
internal efforts to work out cost sharing prior to RFP release; up to a year of formal
efforts involving a consultant to work out cost sharing prior to RFP release; and the
scaling back of the project to include only the mandatory components of county
equipment replacement and narrowbanding. The County Executive is aware of the
Center Board’s desire to release the RFP immediately, and promptly work out cost
sharing as the procurement process unfolds. The County Executive is also aware of
desires by many users that the County fully fund user subscriber equipment and
infrastructure operating and maintenance costs.
The County is committed to fund a $30 million infrastructure, understanding the
debt service will amount to $2.5 million per year for twenty years. The County
does not want to give up on this project. The County does not favor RFP release
without some cost sharing in place, and is willing to fund a consultant to ensure the
needed steps occur quickly and accurately. The County Executive asks that the
Center Board support formal efforts with a consultant in order to work out cost
sharing prior to RFP release.
Pickering noted that the Dane County Fire Chiefs Association, the Dane County
Chiefs of Police Association, the Dane County EMS Association, the Dane County
Cities and Villages Association and the Dane County Towns Association are in the
process of passing resolutions to empower their respective leadership to bring
forward their common concerns and recommendations regarding project
infrastructure, subscriber and operating cost funding.
Salov moved, seconded by Gloede, that: The Public Safety Communications Center
Board supports the concept to move forward in an expedited fashion to bring a
consultant on board to work with an ad hoc regional governance subcommittee of
the Center Board; with participation from the Dane County Fire Chiefs Association,
the Dane County Chiefs of Police Association, the Dane County EMS Association,
the Dane County Cities and Villages Association and the Dane County Towns
Association; such that the RFP is released no later than October 1, 2007. Motion
carried.
McVicar advised that the Technology Committee planned to create a sub-group to
craft an outreach message to potential system users and municipalities. User
agencies needing to purchase subscriber equipment and needing guidance would
be provided a letter from PSC with those details. A letter has been drafted, but is
perhaps best held for a couple more weeks and released with the latest details on
the project plan and timeline.
will they still be scannable with a standard vhf portable radio when they are not on P25?
Based on all I've seen and heard, there will continue to be interoperability and programming for conventional, non-trunked, non-P25 channels. It will be some time to migrate everyone over to the new system (whenever it may be brought on line).
Some progress: an RFP has been issued to discuss the governance and cost sharing of any new system that will be developed. See: http://www.co.dane.wi.us/purch/rfp107127.pdf for the full RFP. This is in advance of any technical RFP forthcoming.
Does anyone know which existing radios will be supported by this / a statewide system? EMS here just got two grants for 20 new radios, they are the F70D's from Icom, and obviously P25 compliant. My Question is, just because the state is requiring new grant-purchased radios to be P25 compliant, is there a chance they still will not trunk although they are P25?
N
N_Jay
Guest
Radios do not need to be trunking to be P25,
HOWEVER; if they are not P25 Trunking capable they will not work on a P25 trunked system. (I think that line should end with a "Duh", but what the hell)
The F70D is a P25 Conventional radio.
HOWEVER; if they are not P25 Trunking capable they will not work on a P25 trunked system. (I think that line should end with a "Duh", but what the hell)
The F70D is a P25 Conventional radio.
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nslt204
Member
The state wide system is going to be a "backbone" system that ties existing systems together.
If your radios are meeting the fed guide under the grants I would not be concerned.
The local systems will continue to exist. A the statewide backbone won't have users just on it. The users will need to be on a "local" system.
Think of it as a statewide patch.
If your radios are meeting the fed guide under the grants I would not be concerned.
The local systems will continue to exist. A the statewide backbone won't have users just on it. The users will need to be on a "local" system.
Think of it as a statewide patch.
MattRiley said:
N
N_Jay
Guest
nslt204 said:
If you want then to work on a trunked system, they have to be trunked radios.
If the sate is providing conventional "interoperability" access to the system, then you could access that with a conventional P25 radio.
General rule of thumb:
Find out what you need, before you buy. (Applies to most things in life):wink: :wink:
nslt204
Member
It's a "BACKBONE" trunking system. Individual radios are not used on the system by itself, well maybe a radio tech or two but no daily users.
Existing local and county radio systems trunked or conventional are tied into the statewide system with hardware and/or software. Could be full time or on an as needed basis.
Example would be one talk group on the Milwaukee Co TRS would be tied into the state backbone and they could talk to a Dodge Co FD on 154.325 as long as it is tied into the backbone.
With the type of system discussed it would not mater what radios or hardware the locals have it would be tied into the state system as is.
Thats why the price is so low on the state system. It uses a lot of already existing infrastructure.
Existing local and county radio systems trunked or conventional are tied into the statewide system with hardware and/or software. Could be full time or on an as needed basis.
Example would be one talk group on the Milwaukee Co TRS would be tied into the state backbone and they could talk to a Dodge Co FD on 154.325 as long as it is tied into the backbone.
With the type of system discussed it would not mater what radios or hardware the locals have it would be tied into the state system as is.
Thats why the price is so low on the state system. It uses a lot of already existing infrastructure.
N_Jay said:
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