Decoding Encryption with Permission...

How secure is DES for radio traffic? - NOT text documents.


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ohiodesperado

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N_Jay said:
The machine was stolen.


The machine by it's self was useless. Even when we have a machine (the lock) we still needed the book (key) to set the dial's on the machine so we could decode the message.
I can't remember the total number of combinations that were possible.

Of course in this day and age, that code technique is so easy to break with even a slow computer. Once you have the the lock or specifically the design of the lock, you just apply all the possible keys and test it against a dictionary word.

I think the thing that needs to be mentioned here is that plain text encryption is about the simplest type of encryption to break because it's simplicity of verification against a dictionary.
It's done similar to a brute force password hack. You either have it or you don't.

Computer files, MS word documents and the like are similarly simple because or a known preamble in all MS word files, same with other files, the preamble is what gives it away.

With voice communications, it's not that simple. If the encrypted signal still has audio to it, which it would have I with think, you get into needing to do speech recognition in order to decrypt it. And the ***** of it is, a computer can recognize a person by speech as easily as a fingerprint because it's that unique. So you would need to code something that could recognize speech, but not be specific enough to recognize it with enough detail that it would need to have a sample of the person's voice that was being decrypted to begin with.
This is the reason that all sub-audible tones are stripped from encrypted messages, because it puts you one step closer to breaking the hash if you have a reference point to work to, this being true of ALL encryptions. It's much easier to get someplace if you know where you are going to being with.

As far as DES specific encryption, look at what has been broken. The specifics of what was encrypted to begin with. It's all computer files, so that is a starting point in its self. You already have found the path and destination. It would of course need to be a data file of some sort to be worth hashing to begin with. There are a specific number of data files that exist, and each has specific preambles that allow the software that created it to recognize it. So you are testing a brute force hack against a finite number of possibilities.
Once you find something that looks like a preamble then you have a hit. There will no doubt be several false positives but that number will be significantly less than the total number of possibilities and one of course will be correct.

Voice is not that simple, just a simple 70's style inverter style scrambler run into a digitizer, with no encryption at the digital level can be a reasonably strong encryption if no one is looking for it and even voice recognition is not going to work unless you are aware that the system is scrambled at the audio level. Add a 5 bit key or even a bit inverter to it, and figure out how to reverse it, without knowing the technology behind it. Once again, you can't get there if you are not sure how to get there in the first place. Mind you I spelled it out here, but say I didn't and handed this so someone to decrypt. There is no point of reference to get to at the audio level. Here is my point, DES is secure for voice, and if someone really wanted to get silly with it, if the encrypted signal was double encrypted, meaning the digital information was encrypted and then encrypted again, there would be no possible way of breaking that without both keys in any reasonable time frame even if you have the latest stuff, and even 70's technology, at the digital encryption level, if done correctly, would be near impossible to break.
 
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MattSR

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rescue161 said:
Plain old DES - No P25. I can create a P25 DES-XL or a DES-OFB file too, but figured plain old DES would be better due to the fact that a lot of people think that DES is not secure.


Err whats the diff?? P25 DES-XL is just as secure as CVSD DES-XL as its the same algo.

DES is still DES regardless of the voice coding scheme...

now, the mode of operation (say OFB vs CFB vs CBC vs ECB) is another argument entirely....

Cheers,
Matt
 

MattSR

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ohiodesperado said:
you get into needing to do speech recognition in order to decrypt it.

[expletive removed]

Three letter agencies have been breaking voice traffic (and other data streams too) long before speech recognition came abouit.


Don't believe me? Pick up a book on statistical analysis and read it. You'd be amazed how easy it is to compare a valid data stream to random noise.
 
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N_Jay

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MattSR said:
Err whats the diff?? P25 DES-XL is just as secure as CVSD DES-XL as its the same algo.

DES is still DES regardless of the voice coding scheme...

now, the mode of operation (say OFB vs CFB vs CBC vs ECB) is another argument entirely....

Cheers,
Matt

He didn't say there was a difference, he was just pointing out what he was doing. :roll: :confused:

By the way, there is no such thing as P25 DES-XL.

And in the CVSD world, I think "XL" means OFB and non-XL is CFB, but I could be wrong.
 

rescue161

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N_Jay said:
He didn't say there was a difference, he was just pointing out what he was doing. :roll: :confused:

By the way, there is no such thing as P25 DES-XL.

And in the CVSD world, I think "XL" means OFB and non-XL is CFB, but I could be wrong.

Thanks N_Jay!
 

poltergeisty

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You guys aren't thinking outside the box. You need to use the equipment against its own self. Kinda like how you hear pro-voice. ;)

Something like reverse engineering. I believe NSA knows all about this.

I also want to add that primes and collisions play a part too. (Big Grin) :)
 
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poltergeisty

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SCPD

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I dont think we will see anyone break the encryption .. as the only people i know that did it did it in a matter of a few days with with custom built computer (read below) or really a whole lot of computers (also below).

Check out:

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Crypto/Crypto_misc/DESCracker/

http://www.distributed.net/des/

for some interesting reading.

From what i have seen with DES .. there are so many combinations that it would take 400 million years to crack a file as you describe. This is of course with one computer ... so well i just say good luck as it is nowhere near as insecure as you may think it is.
 

wlmr

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rescue161 said:
LOL and it still hasn't been cracked...

Hey rescue161 - isn't it time to use a new key and create a new message? After all that's what happens in the real world!

After all, the staunch "easy to crack" crowd says it's too easy.

Or for real unscrambling fun, imitate a radio system with different keys on different talkgroups. Go ahead and mix/match various messages with random changes in what key is being used - similar to what you would receive off a trunking system if you monitor more than one talkgroup.

Encrypted voice is a moving target. A moving target with sudden changes in direction.
 

MattSR

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N_Jay said:
He didn't say there was a difference, he was just pointing out what he was doing. :roll: :confused:

By the way, there is no such thing as P25 DES-XL.

And in the CVSD world, I think "XL" means OFB and non-XL is CFB, but I could be wrong.

Hello.

On a Motorola ASTRO radio, you can quite easily use the DES-XL algo in ASTRO mode. Hence why I said "P25 DES-XL". I realise this is not a technically correct term as DES-XL isn't part of the P25 standard, but you can definitely use -XL encryption in ASTRO mode.

Securenet DES-XL isn't OFB - it uses a counter addressing scheme (ie there is no feedback in the cypher algo)

As far as my expletives go (Yes, I shouldv'e been far more diplomatic - sorry about that) I have run a quick search for threads containing the word I used and it seems that its ok for others to use words I did... perhaps its the context its used in...

Search: Key Word(s): b***s**t

Showing results 1 to 25 of 37
Search took 0.64 seconds.
 
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loumaag

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MattSR said:
...As far as my expletives go (Yes, I shouldv'e been far more diplomatic - sorry about that) I have run a quick search for threads containing the word I used and it seems that its ok for others to use words I did... perhaps its the context its used in...
No, not really...you just got noticed that is all. When I do a search, 54 come up, the difference is I see deleted posts, so there really was an additional 17 that are now gone. :wink:

I would go back and do something about the ones you found, but the newest one is from 5/27 and sleeping dogs do indeed deserve to just lie. :cool:

Now, back on topic.
 

rescue161

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Okay guys, I'm just gonna go ahead and give out the whole key. This SHOULD help some folks produce the audio and hopefully make it easier to figure out DES transmissions in the future (mine of course).

I used a T3011DX key loader with the following key inserted:

F729-B03E-A415-8C6D

Logical ID: 0161


The contest is pretty much over, but this could be valuable information for the future. Heck, I may even post the text of the message. I guess if nobody is able to decode it within a couple of months, I will. Thanks guys and gals, it's been a blast!
 

SenderGreen

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Enigma

The German Enigma machine was captured from a Nazi U-boat. It was captured by chance, there was no special mission to capture it as depicted in the movie U-571. Ironically the German navy Enigma was not cracked untill after the war. This was due to the German Navy's strict adherence to Enigma operational procedures, and tribute to the actual strength of it's ciphers. However the Luftwaffe and Army Enigma was cracked due mostly to the operator faith in the fact it was so good it could not be broken (lesson there). The Enigma has six wheels which were set daily (I believe). On one occasion a German Enigma operator began to send a message, halfway through he realized the wheels were not reset for the day. The Enigma operator stopped reset the wheels for the day and began to resend the exact same message. This was apperantly a major breach of protocol/security and the break that the English code breakers (Bletchly Park I think) had been waiting for. From this point on the Codebreakers routinely deciphered Enigma messages (Luftwaffe and Army only). The German operators (except the Navy) were so confident in the Enigma they routinely used the same settings for it's six wheels. Whenever the English saw the first 3 letters were "LON" they new the last three were "DON", "MAD"="RID", "HIT"="LER", "BER"="LIN". There were many repeatedly used wheel combinations that were common knowledge to English.

I believe the computer that aided the the English codebrerakers was code named "Colossus" and secret until I don't know how long after the war. I have seen a few textbooks which credit Eniac as being the "first" computer when in fact that disntinction should belong to Colossus.

Sorry for the rant, and this is pretty much from memory. So if I'm mistaken, you get what you pay for. I have found the story of Enigma fascinating. I don't mean to detract from the purpose of the thread. I just wanted to illustrate that that the story of the breaking of Enigma is more than merely the capture of one. Human error due to over-confidence also played a major role as I understand it.
 
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