Determining LCN's for NX4 System w/Sentinel v2.02 (revision 01)

[werinshades]

Thank you as I did not realize that 0 is blank. Please know I started all of this by entering 0 as the LCN for each of these four frequencies then ran the LCN finder for an hour with nothing...all this while actively monitoring one of the frequencies on the other scanner programmed as a single frequency system. However, I will try this again and do appreciate each of your comments and recommendations.

Put in the other 3 frequencies as conventional and see if you have activity. I have run across One Frequency Trunk systems that might be incorrectly labeled as NXDN Trunk. If you're following conversation on 1 frequency on TGID 1, it's possible you might have a One Frequency NDXN system? FCC database information isn't always correct as you might know.

 

[jimv]

Okay guys, again thanks for all of your insights and advice.

I reprogrammed this four frequency system with each frequencies LCN as 0...or aka blank. For a change in the assessment, I am using the BCD436 as the one-frequency system receiver using 461.575 as that frequency,

Now, here is the SDS100 set to System Status while the 436 is receiving an audio transmission: https://photos.app.goo.gl/51uQFYT3Ce39Rogg6
The audio on the 436 is loud and clear although the System Status indicates the RAN, there is nothing on the System ID or Site ID. Not sure if this application will display this information for a NXDN system. If it should, it's probably because the strength is not enough as I might be too far from the system.

Now, here is a video of the SDS on the LCN Finder mode while a transmission is heard on the 436.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HxHhxB9nhxSzywYB8
Again, loud and clear on the 436 and the SDS displays the frequency (461.575) and the RSSI is 101 DB but nothing about finding the LCN.

So, all of my issues may be attributable to being too far from the site to decode the LCN data but not the RAN, TG ID, or unit data. I don't know but the programming seems correct. Hanover, PA where this system is is about 35 miles away as the crow flies to where I am in Frederick, MD,

 

[Hit_Factor]

Just having the 4 freqs in a non trunked FL might be the best you can do.

You know the RAN now.

Leave talkgroups on search, add them in as you hear them.

73, K8HIT
Icom: IC-7300, IC-PW1, ID-5100A, ID-51A Plus 2, IC-R30, Hytera PD782G, Kenwood TH-D74, Uniden SDS100, DVMega, SDRplay RSPduo

 

[jimv]

Just having the 4 freqs in a non trunked FL might be the best you can do.

You know the RAN now.

Leave talkgroups on search, add them in as you hear them.

73, K8HIT
Icom: IC-7300, IC-PW1, ID-5100A, ID-51A Plus 2, IC-R30, Hytera PD782G, Kenwood TH-D74, Uniden SDS100, DVMega, SDRplay RSPduo

Agreed and thank you all again for your help and insights.

 

[u2brent]

Any luck?
Are you sure it's not part of this is the system..
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=8936
If the system only has a bit of activity, It may take a long time for LCN Finder to figure out the CH #'s, Have you given LCN finder ample time to analyze the system?, I'm talking hours, not 5-10 minutes. If CH#'s are found you'll see progress indicated on the screen as it runs.
Also, Did you figure out which is the CC? Is the Control Channel on another license? Maybe you only have 4 of 8 (or more frequencies involved) The CC should be sending out a System ID. (Which you have not shown, nor do I see in your clips)
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WQMI535
you may only have half the picture? throw 452.6125 & 453.01875 in and see? IDK worth a shot..
Sometimes it takes a program like DSD+ to figure out a system..
Either way the CC must be in the programing as well as any voice CH's. For LCN Finder to work...

 

[jimv]

Any luck?
Are you sure it's not part of this is the system..
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=8936
If the system only has a bit of activity, It may take a long time for LCN Finder to figure out the CH #'s, Have you given LCN finder ample time to analyze the system?, I'm talking hours, not 5-10 minutes. If CH#'s are found you'll see progress indicated on the screen as it runs.
Also, Did you figure out which is the CC? Is the Control Channel on another license? Maybe you only have 4 of 8 (or more frequencies involved) The CC should be sending out a System ID. (Which you have not shown, nor do I see in your clips)
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WQMI535
you may only have half the picture? throw 452.6125 & 453.01875 in and see? IDK worth a shot..
Sometimes it takes a program like DSD+ to figure out a system..
Either way the CC should be in the programing as well as any voice CH's.

No luck but I will be trying to look at the whole system, not just this one site. Yes, I have the system you linked in as a one-frequency system. The scanner acknowledges it as a NX4 system but I have never (for months) received a transmission on it. I have also allowed the LCN finder run on this Hanover PA site for hours but nothing. You will also notice the other site listed in the RR DB, the one you reference, has no additional information other than the CC listed. That CC is listed as 452.6125 MHz. When I look at the FCC ULS for this other Mills Communications system (ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - KBK826 - MILLS COMMUNICATIONS, INC. - Frequencies Summary ) that 452.6125 or 453.01875 does not show on the list, which to me means it's part of a different Mills Communications trunked NXDN network.

I'll keep messing with this but it's pretty perplexing.

 

[werinshades]

Any luck?
Are you sure it's not part of this is the system..
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=8936
If the system only has a bit of activity, It may take a long time for LCN Finder to figure out the CH #'s, Have you given LCN finder ample time to analyze the system?, I'm talking hours, not 5-10 minutes. If CH#'s are found you'll see progress indicated on the screen as it runs.
Also, Did you figure out which is the CC? Is the Control Channel on another license? Maybe you only have 4 of 8 (or more frequencies involved) The CC should be sending out a System ID. (Which you have not shown, nor do I see in your clips)
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WQMI535
you may only have half the picture? throw 452.6125 & 453.01875 in and see? IDK worth a shot..
Sometimes it takes a program like DSD+ to figure out a system..
Either way the CC must be in the programing as well as any voice CH's. For LCN Finder to work...

Good suggestions. I found this license: ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WQNS351 - MILLS COMMUNICATIONS, INC. - Frequencies Summary

Even though it's not labeled as Trunking, maybe try 464.550 and check for a control channel. The other suggestion is adjust the filter setting at the site level and see if decoding improves.

 

[jimv]

Good suggestions. I found this license: ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WQNS351 - MILLS COMMUNICATIONS, INC. - Frequencies Summary

Even though it's not labeled as Trunking, maybe try 464.550 and check for a control channel. The other suggestion is adjust the filter setting at the site level and see if decoding improves.

I sure will and thanks again!

 

[jimv]

Put in the other 3 frequencies as conventional and see if you have activity. I have run across One Frequency Trunk systems that might be incorrectly labeled as NXDN Trunk. If you're following conversation on 1 frequency on TGID 1, it's possible you might have a One Frequency NDXN system? FCC database information isn't always correct as you might know.

Yes sir and I have done that. I have received the same three TG's on three of the four frequencies, which to me indicates this is part of a trunked network as opposed to single frequency systems. I'll keep in experimenting and thanks.

 

[werinshades]

Yes sir and I have done that. I have received the same three TG's on three of the four frequencies, which to me indicates this is part of a trunked network as opposed to single frequency systems. I'll keep in experimenting and thanks.

Any luck?
Are you sure it's not part of this is the system..
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=8936
If the system only has a bit of activity, It may take a long time for LCN Finder to figure out the CH #'s, Have you given LCN finder ample time to analyze the system?, I'm talking hours, not 5-10 minutes. If CH#'s are found you'll see progress indicated on the screen as it runs.
Also, Did you figure out which is the CC? Is the Control Channel on another license? Maybe you only have 4 of 8 (or more frequencies involved) The CC should be sending out a System ID. (Which you have not shown, nor do I see in your clips)
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WQMI535
you may only have half the picture? throw 452.6125 & 453.01875 in and see? IDK worth a shot..
Sometimes it takes a program like DSD+ to figure out a system..
Either way the CC must be in the programing as well as any voice CH's. For LCN Finder to work...

Yes sir and I have done that. I have received the same three TG's on three of the four frequencies, which to me indicates this is part of a trunked network as opposed to single frequency systems. I'll keep in experimenting and thanks.

While adding frequency 452.6125 the "Channel ID" is 210. That would be your LCN entry.

 

[jimv]

Awesome. I was not aware that in the RR DB the Channel ID is the LCN. I appreciate that info.

 

[werinshades]

Awesome. I was not aware that in the RR DB the Channel ID is the LCN. I appreciate that info.

Here's an example of a system I monitor regularly: https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=14629

Each Channel ID (Which the system administrator has assigned, and varies from each system) has to be entered under the LCN column in order for it to trunk track properly.

 

[jimv]

Here's an example of a system I monitor regularly: https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=14629

Each Channel ID (Which the system administrator has assigned, and varies from each system) has to be entered under the LCN column in order for it to trunk track properly.

Interesting the site has numerous different licenses assigned.

 

[werinshades]

Interesting the site has numerous different licenses assigned.

Yes...their are many unused frequencies, probably when the UHF-T frequencies have to be abandoned, they can replace with the others. Also for capacity issues..

 

[Hit_Factor]

For me, this type of snooping is an enjoyable part of this hobby.

73, K8HIT
Icom: IC-7300, IC-PW1, ID-5100A, ID-51A Plus 2, IC-R30, Hytera PD782G, Kenwood TH-D74, Uniden SDS100, DVMega, SDRplay RSPduo

 

[jimv]

Thanks again for all of the insights, recommendations, and education. It seems the Mills Communications NXDN network is comprised of two separate licenses, the already documented in RR DB WQMI535 and also KBK826. When combining these two site transmitter frequencies into one system, the CC associated with WQMI535 (452.6125) is found and LCN search begins working. I now have four of the six 100+ watt site transmit frequencies associated with LCNs and the programming is now tracking the system. I will continue monitoring and documenting and wanted to give a shout out to you all who helped.

 

[werinshades]

Thanks again for all of the insights, recommendations, and education. It seems the Mills Communications NXDN network is comprised of two separate licenses, the already documented in RR DB WQMI535 and also KBK826. When combining these two site transmitter frequencies into one system, the CC associated with WQMI535 (452.6125) is found and LCN search begins working. I now have four of the six 100+ watt site transmit frequencies associated with LCNs and the programming is now tracking the system. I will continue monitoring and documenting and wanted to give a shout out to you all who helped.

You might have more work to do: ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - KBK827 - MILLS COMMUNICATIONS INC

Also appears to be a NXDN Trunking System...maybe related, maybe not. Do a search of these frequencies too and see if you hear or see of the same talk groups. Look like you're going to be a little busy there...lol!

 

[jimv]

You might have more work to do: ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - KBK827 - MILLS COMMUNICATIONS INC

Also appears to be a NXDN Trunking System...maybe related, maybe not. Do a search of these frequencies too and see if you hear or see of the same talk groups. Look like you're going to be a little busy there...lol!

Excellent info. I didn't notice this one and clearly may be related to the while "system". Much appreciated.

 

[u2brent]

Thanks again for all of the insights, recommendations, and education. It seems the Mills Communications NXDN network is comprised of two separate licenses, the already documented in RR DB WQMI535 and also KBK826. When combining these two site transmitter frequencies into one system, the CC associated with WQMI535 (452.6125) is found and LCN search begins working. I now have four of the six 100+ watt site transmit frequencies associated with LCNs and the programming is now tracking the system. I will continue monitoring and documenting and wanted to give a shout out to you all who helped.

Sweet!
If you don't mind (when your sure of the results), post them up here.. I have the system in my programing, but it is clearly incomplete , although I'm rarely out that way; I wouldn't mind knowing how to set it up correctly. Not to mention you could submit the info.

Plus we've learned there's more to be found..

WQMI535 Hanover PA

Site 117-1 (RAN 1) Hanover
452.6125 CC CH# 210
453.01875 CH# ?

KBK826 Hanover/Menallen Twp PA

Site 117-1 (RAN 1) Hanover
461.1000 CH# ?
461.2250 CH# ?
461.5750 CH# ?
463.8250 CH# ?

Site 117-? (RAN ?) Menallen Twp
461.3000 CH# ?
464.0750 CH# ?

WSO555 Aberdeen/Westminster MD

Site 117-? (RAN ?) Aberdeen
461.6000 CH# ?
463.6750 CH# ?

Site 117-? (RAN ?) Westminster
462.0000 CH# ?
463.2250 CH# ?
464.3500 CH# ?
464.9500 CH# ?

KBK827 Baltimore/Jonestown/Mt Airy MD

Site 117-? (RAN ?) Baltimore
451.2750 CH# ?
451.7500 CH# ?
461.1000 CH# ?
463.7500 CH# ?
464.8000 CH# ?

Site 117-? (RAN ?) Jonestown
451.6750 CH# ?
452.8500 CH# ?
461.3000 CH# ?
462.2750 CH# ?

Site 117-? (RAN ?) Mt Airy
451.5000 CH# ?
452.4750 CH# ?
461.7000 CH# ?
464.0000 CH# ?

And there may be more...

And not to derail the thread.
But, If you don't mind trying, You should be within range of the PAStarNet P25 site in Hanover.
It's not been confirmed that it's online, but would be on 859.6875 (if it is). Site 55 WRAJ230
And if you do happen to pick something up.. You could post it in this forum..
https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/pa-statewide-p25-phase-2-system.349313/
Thanks! Happy Sleuthing!

 

[W5RGP]

Try analyze then system status
It should give you the total number of frequency’s that the cc knows about
If you don’t get that info you don’t have the cc for that system and it will never work


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