Did Motorola Digital Radio Equipment Lead to Cincinnati Firefighter's Death?

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tmfok7

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Hopefully, administrators will swallow their pride and pay heed to what is going on with these systems. If they are having this much problem with just the digital, then what are they experiencing with encryption on top of that?
 

rdale

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"The International Association of Fire Fighters is now recommending fire department not use digital systems in fires."

So the IAFF used to be onboard with digital? Ouch...
 

K8TEK

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According to NFPA 1221, they recommend using neither trunked or digital.
 

scannerman1111

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Sounds like a user/training problem to me! No radio system is 100%. What happend to good tactics? The best radio system in the world is not going to protect someone. Following good tactics and standards will reduce the risk. Lets face it, piblic safety work is very dangerous. Blaming the radio system is not the problem.
 

idontknow82

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They could have gotten hand held walkie talkies from walmart for 35 dollars instead of 35 million to talk to each other in the same building, the walmart ones would of done the job. To talk farther away yeah those cheapies aren't going to work, and apparently the 35 million dollar ones didnt either!
 

poppafred

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What is with this obsession with encrypting everything that everybody says over the radios?

Digital adds another layer of difficulty to communications, as one dropped character scrambles the entire transmission. I hear that all the time with the state police here. Adding encryption just makes it that much more complex. Is suggesting doughnuts and coffee that sensitive a subject? Heck, everyone has to eat.

Motorola makes a big deal out of the "security" side with digital and encryption, they probably never mention the complexity and missed calls that result.

Just because you CAN do something is not always an indication that you SHOULD do something.

Encrypting fire ground comms is stupid. And two good people paid for that stupidity with their lives.
 
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timjude

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It was inevitable,But somehow i think we all knew it was going to happen sooner or later..And it will happen again..No doubt.I agree motorola should have to pay and i am sure they will..via lawsuit.Victems family should be awarded the 35 million the system cost and motorola should declare it a failure and be forced to install a reliable analog system.Now maybe this will get some attention and motorola and others won't be pushing the digital craze so hard..
 
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N_Jay

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They could have gotten hand held walkie talkies from walmart for 35 dollars instead of 35 million to talk to each other in the same building, the walmart ones would of done the job. To talk farther away yeah those cheapies aren't going to work, and apparently the 35 million dollar ones didnt either!
Maybe you missed the fact that the new system works better then the old system?

Oh, wait, you don't bother with facts. Never mind.;)
 
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N_Jay

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What is with this obsession with encrypting everything that everybody says over the radios?
This has NOTHING to do with encryption.
Motorola makes a big deal out of the "security" side with digital and encryption, they probably never mention the complexity and missed calls that result.
You sure?

[
Encrypting fire ground comms is stupid. And two good people paid for that stupidity with their lives.
Where did it say anything aapount encryption?

I think that the "obsession with encryption" seem to be in this thread.;);)
 
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N_Jay

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It was inevitable,But somehow i think we all knew it was going to happen sooner or later..And it will happen again..No doubt.I agree motorola should have to pay and i am sure they will..via lawsuit.Victems family should be awarded the 35 million the system cost and motorola should declare it a failure and be forced to install a reliable analog system.Now maybe this will get some attention and motorola and others won't be pushing the digital craze so hard..
And what is the findings are that there were training or procedural problems? (as there are in almost every one of these cases.)

No, it can't be that?

If the emergency call was recorded by the system, how did it get missed by the Incident command and dispatch center? (Inquiring minds want to know)

Of course some here are able to come to THEIR conclusions without being hampered by facts.
 

gmclam

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According to NFPA 1221, they recommend using neither trunked or digital.
The problem is not trunked, the problem is repeated. It makes little sense to me that governments force fire fighters to use radios that transmit on a frequency that must be recieved many miles away and repeated on a different frequency back to a location only several yards away from where the fire fighter is. DIRECT communication is the key here.

timjude said:
Victems family should be awarded the 35 million the system cost and motorola should declare it a failure and be forced to install a reliable analog system.
Funny [sic] because Motorola makes most, if not all, of their profits from taxpayer money used to buy these systems that most of us don't want.
 

mdulrich

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Digital adds another layer of difficulty to communications, as one dropped character scrambles the entire transmission. I hear that all the time with the state police here. Adding encryption just makes it that much more complex.
One dropped character does not scramble the entire transmission. There is error correction that corrects for these sorts of things until so much is dropped that you will lose part of the conversation. It takes quite a bit to lose the entire transmission.

The fire talkgroups are not encrypted on that system so that doesn't enter into this discussion. If it was encrypted again it is the same error correction that kicks in.

And don't compare what you hear on your scanner with what the system radios are hearing.

Mike
 

mdulrich

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They could have gotten hand held walkie talkies from walmart for 35 dollars instead of 35 million to talk to each other in the same building, the walmart ones would of done the job. To talk farther away yeah those cheapies aren't going to work, and apparently the 35 million dollar ones didnt either!
You obviously havn't been in a structure fire doing fire suppression. The $35 Walmart radios wouldn't make it through 1 good fire. The expensive Motorola radios sometimes don't make it.

Mike
 

idontknow82

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Maybe you missed the fact that the new system works better then the old system?

Oh, wait, you don't bother with facts. Never mind.;)
Speaking of not bothering with facts N_jay, THERE WERE DEATHS. Why continue to defend these hazardous digital systems you seem to be SO fond of?
 
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N_Jay

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Speaking of not bothering with facts N_jay, THERE WERE DEATHS. Why continue to defend these hazardous digital systems you seem to be SO fond of?
Can you please tell me the technology that we should not stop using because it has never been associated, even in an indirect manner with anyone's death?

Please, name one.

Just one.

Maybe you should stop GUESSING and ASSUMING you know it all, and actually look into a few of the FACTS on both sides of this very complex issue.

Your simplistic "They are all wrong" attitude does NOTHING for any of the people working hard to help our first responders with the very best tools available.
 
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