Did Motorola Digital Radio Equipment Lead to Cincinnati Firefighter's Death?

[kayn1n32008]

There was no facts that digital is better from that link!

N_Jay stop trolling!

You really seem to have a big hard on for digital, are you stuck in the 20th century???

idontknow82, do you honestly think that a $35 P.O.S. Walmart bubblepack radio is going to perform better than a $2000 purpose built commercial radio in a fireground situation??? You should start sharing what ever it is you are smoking so the rest of us can see the light that you think you know so much about!!!

Remember that there is a VERY limited amount USABLE spectrum (less than 150Mhz for all commercial/public safety users between 30-500 Mhz) how else do you propose to be able to use it effectivly with out using trunking AND/OR digital modes?


As a side note to the use of SCBA why are they not getting an in mask audio system so that you are not talking through a SCBA mask into a mic, rather than having that mic INSIDE the face seal? would that not make it any easier to understand?

 

[idontknow82]

you really seem to have a big hard on for digital, are you stuck in the 20th century??? My guess is that N_Jay was refeing to COVERAGE being better with the new system.

idontknow82, do you honestly think that a $35 P.O.S. Walmart bubblepack radio is going to perform better than a $2000 purpose built commercial radio in a fireground situation??? You should start sharing what ever it is you are smoking so the rest of us can see the light that you think you know so much about!!!

Remember that there is a VERY limited amount USABLE spectrum (less than 150Mhz for all commercial/public safety users between 30-500 Mhz) how else do you propose to be able to use it effectivly with out using trunking AND/OR digital modes?

Well Mr here and there sometimes, you must be N_jay, he must have at least 3 usernames here. Thought they frowned on that. And to get back on topic, the expensive radios didnt work either.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Well Mr here and there sometimes, you must be N_jay, he must have at least 3 usernames here. Thought they frowned on that. And to get back on topic, the expensive radios didnt work either.

idontknow82, nope this is not N_Jay, sorry guess again!!!and please do not ever accuse me of being someone i am not.

just calling it as i see it, any thread that i have read that you have posted to involving digital systems you seem to have a hate on for it, like OpenSky for example.

 

[N_Jay]

Well Mr here and there sometimes, you must be N_jay,

Once again, you have made an incorrect assumption of fact.
(You are getting quite good at that. A little more practice and your posts will be completely without basis. Keep up the good work)

he must have at least 3 usernames here.

Nope, just one. I am me and no other.
(But do keep trying)

Thought they frowned on that.

It's more then frowned on, it is good reason to be banned.
Why don't you give it a try :twisted:

And to get back on topic, the expensive radios didnt work either.

Really? Not at all?
Hmm, I think if that was the case they would have been identified as the PRIMARY cause.
(But obviously, I am not as skilled at reading between the lines as you are.)

 

[scannerfreak]

Alright guys, lets keep the personal attacks out of the conversations. Make your arguments without them.

 

[ILMRadioMan]

As a side note to the use of SCBA why are they not getting an in mask audio system so that you are not talking through a SCBA mask into a mic, rather than having that mic INSIDE the face seal? would that not make it any easier to understand?

Answer:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[N_Jay]

Answer:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

That and the fact that the low pressure alarm vibrates the air supply rendering almost any microphone inside the mask unintelligible (yes, current digital worse then analog)

 

[exkalibur]

You are going to have to excuse my somewhat calous attitude towards human life here...with that said;

Digital trunked systems have been around for years, used by many fire departments and police services. I'm not disputing that digital isn't the best choice for fireground ops - those should be analog and simplex. However, understand that a fire scene is a very dangerous place to be. People die. It's part of the job. Trying to blame a communications system on someone's death is absolutely rediculous.

Encryption does NOT have a negative effect on coverage at all.

For people who are hell-bend against digital...why? Because you now need an expensive radio??? Using a real system radio, digital sounds just fine.

 

[RADIOUSER5]

Here is a link to the Voice Radio Communications Guide published by the United States Fire Administration (now part of FEMA) and the International Association of Firefighters. It covers in Section 3 the NIST and IEEE noise testing results and recommendations to NOT use digital radios (with the present DVSI decade old vocoder design) with SCBA on fire ground operations. More tests are planned in the first half of this year. If anyone has any other objective and scientifically valid noise tests, please let me know. Note this is a large file (3.48M), but a very good overall radio reference for the lay person.

http://www.iaff.org/hs/PDF/IAFFCommunications_Guide.pdf

 

[Spfld800MhzTrunking]

The State Of Illinois has a Statewide Digital system built by Motorola and it sucks bad radios constantly breaking up because of the digital audio stream. Also St Louis, MO went to a digital system and there radio system is even 10 times worse its horriable...

 

[Thunderbolt]

Due to complaints received, please stop arguing with each other, and keep this discussion civilized. This will be the only warning given regarding such behavior. If this keeps on, I will not hesitate to close this thread.

73s

Ron

 

[willtorres918]

Stop the arguing and listen to traumacop

After this post there should not have been any more arguments. N_Jay and idontknow82 should both quit. Digital is not perfect neither is analog. Both of you need to look into some facts. If there ever is a need when you're trapped and you need your radio to communicate to someone for help, then I would hope that whatever communications system works whether it's digital or analog, plain and simple.

From what I read the system failed during testing to begin with. If you can't use a radio inside a building then what do you use? Another radio, cell phone, smoke signals, morse code with flashlights? Seems pretty worthless to me.

The communications were not the only factor, correct, but the outcome may have been different if the system didn't fail at that particular moment. True, the signal may have made it to the base but the signal may not have made it back to the fireground units.

From the IAFC testing report;

"testing indicated there are significant radio communication challenges regarding SCBA and other fire-safety equipment. In the case of a mask with no additional background noise at the transmission site, there was a notable degradation in intelligibility for the digital systems."

"The performance of the 25 kHz analog system was either statistically similar to or better than the P25 digital systems for all environments. "

"Analog FM performed better than the digital P25 Full Rate and P25 Enhanced Full Rate systems in six of the nine environments tested under the MRT protocol. "

"Based on the MRT test scores, analog communications was more intelligible in six of nine high-noise environments tested. In two of the nine tests, analog and digital were statistically similar. In one instance, enhanced vocoder was more intelligible than analog. The test results indicate that digital communication needs improvement, especially in high-noise environments. "​

Now that we have that behind us, the International Fire Code, Ohio Basic Building Code, National Fire Protection Association and several others now require or support the enactment of local codes that require the owners of large buildings to install "Signal Boosters" for the Fire Department Communications System to help prevent these types of incidents.

Signal Booster complies with IFCNFPA new building standards., Bird Technologies Gro

Emergency communications systems and NFPA 72-2010 - 2009-04-01 06:00:00 | Consulting-Specifying Engineer

Cost, Complexity Threaten to Block In-Building Communications - FIRE CHIEF article

Big cities were the first to start asking for this and everyone else is jumping on the wagon. The fact of the matter is, If the Authority Having Jurisdiction (THE FD) exercised their rights there would not be such a prevalance of communications issues within the large buildings.

Communications alone didn't cause the death of these guys. Being a leader in the fire service and firefighter for 20 years, history and NIOSH reports will show you that a series of errors (10 in this case) led to firefighter injuries and deaths. It's very very unfortunate to loose guys like this. But as the saying goes, we are not inventing new ways to kill firefighters, but we are documenting them better. The responsibility goes to everyone involved in the fire ground incident as outlined in the report.

I use both systems and am glad my day to day operations are ANALOG.

 

[SCPD]

Simple Simplex

The problem is not trunked, the problem is repeated. It makes little sense to me that governments force fire fighters to use radios that transmit on a frequency that must be recieved many miles away and repeated on a different frequency back to a location only several yards away from where the fire fighter is. DIRECT communication is the key here.

Exactly.

Here's a quote from the linked article:

" ...The city of Phoenix has the same system, but when fighting a blaze the fire department uses the old analog system that transmits calls radio to radio, instead of through a computer system..."

About six years ago, a Delaware fireman lost his life because he could not communicate with fellow firefighters he could see, because he couldn't make the "system" many miles away. Who ever it is that makes the decision that all comms have to go through a repeater is the one who needs to be sued. And it could be the fire chief himself because he recommended that all comms be recorded.

Really, this is the root cause here. When the system is put out for quote, often some paper pusher who has never keyed a mike, or like I said above, a command officer, thinks it would be a good idea to have all comms recorded. You can't do that simplex. So the ability to record everything is in the RFQ, so the vendor has to have that capability in the quote they submit back to the municipality. You can almost say, "What did Moto do wrong?" They set up the system just like the customer wanted.

 

[N_Jay]

Exactly.

Not quite.
BTW, I am clarifying not arguing.

Here's a quote from the linked article:

" ...The city of Phoenix has the same system, but when fighting a blaze the fire department uses the old analog system that transmits calls radio to radio, instead of through a computer system..."

It may be a quote but it is not accurate.
No one has "the exact same system" because no one has the exact same environment, the exact same situations, the exact same procedures, and the exact same decision makers.

About six years ago, a Delaware fireman lost his life because he could not communicate with fellow firefighters he could see, because he couldn't make the "system" many miles away.

I recall the event but not the details. As with most tragedies of this kind, there were probably many causes, but I will take you at your word that the communications was the primary cause.

Who ever it is that makes the decision that all comms have to go through a repeater is the one who needs to be sued. And it could be the fire chief himself because he recommended that all comms be recorded.

These decisions are typically not made by a single individual.
They are typically not taken lightly.
They are typically the best solution available at the time.
AND they are always an imperfect compromise.

Really, this is the root cause here. When the system is put out for quote, often some paper pusher who has never keyed a mike, or like I said above, a command officer, thinks it would be a good idea to have all comms recorded.You can't do that simplex. So the ability to record everything is in the RFQ, so the vendor has to have that capability in the quote they submit back to the municipality.

I have rarely seen a "paper pusher" have significant input, however I have seen multiple command and management people have significant disagreements as to which of the many compromises is the "best" solution.
Additionally, there is also typically significant discussion and design decisions made after the vendor is selected.
It is very rare to see a system go in "exactly as specified", and even rarer "just because it was specified that way".

You can almost say, "What did Moto do wrong?" They set up the system just like the customer wanted.

This is VERY true. Not just for Motorola, but for all vendors.

 

[1268]

One big question is was the radio system designed (contractually) to provide in building coverage? The problems mentioned in this article seem to revolve around in-building communication. If it's part of the contract to provide certain level of in-building communication, then Motorola is definitely @ fault but if not, City must pay for the upgrade. There is nothing free, just because you paid $35M for a radio system it does not mean that it will provide communication wherever you want it to provide. Come one, let's look @ the facts.[/QUOTE]

That is the issue in a nut shell interior operations are seriously degraded with digital radios. I Been there done that.
If I am the IC and I can't talk to interior then we have a huge issue.
As far as the there is nothing for free...BS. If you sell a system for public safety then it better work in buildings . If not the mfg and dealers should be held accountable and the FCC should ban those systems from public safety use.
How many fireman and law enforcement officers have to die before the Federal government stops this crap ?

 

[N_Jay]

That is the issue in a nut shell interior operations are seriously degraded with digital radios. I Been there done that.

All radio communications are degraded within buildings. Digital no worse than analog.
The coverage issue relates to the use of repeater (or trunking) operation vs. simplex.
It is not a digital vs. analog issue.
The Firground issue with digital is background noise, not coverage.

If I am the IC and I can't talk to interior then we have a huge issue.

Yes! And if you don't have the procedures and training in place that is your agencies and your fault.
No system is 100% and expecting it to be in any situation is irresponsible.

As far as the there is nothing for free...BS. If you sell a system for public safety then it better work in buildings

You are joking right?
I mean you expect a vendor to fix the laws of nature for you AND do it at a loss?
Time to stop dreaming and join the real world.

If not the mfg and dealers should be held accountable and the FCC should ban those systems from public safety use.

Again, this makes no sense.
You want a law that says you can not sell anything that is not perfect beyond possibilities.
Lets just write a law that outlaws house fires. :roll:

How many fireman and law enforcement officers have to die before the Federal government stops this crap ?

Exactly what "crap" do you want stopped.

(Note to idontknow: Notice, I did not call 1239413 stupid, however I am thinking he may be a second ID of yours. :twisted::lol::twisted

 

[CSHIFTLT]

Hopefully I quote this correctly, but with most radio systems, we have lots of bells and whistles that salesman sell us, but they are not the ones that use the systems, these systems, P25, EDACS, Smart, and/or any mix of these, it boils down to best practices and the setup and training on your home system, just like a nozzle there are lots of them out there, but they all help you extinguish a fire, but some models are better in some fire services than others, once again best practices and training. and in the end, it may have been no fault of anyones, other than we work in a very dangerous job.


NFPA 1221
8.3.4.1.26* Tactical Communications. Trunked radio system
talkgroups shall not be used to fulfill the requirement for the
provision of a simplex radio channel for on-scene tactical
communications.

cshiftlt

 

[radiomanNJ1]

It has too be that people are equating digital with encryption. They are not the same. It is time to step up and spend money. It's not the days of buying crystals to plug in anymore and there are no black and white TV's in your homes.

Digital works well all over.
If the fire chiefs would stop the unions from crying about everything then maybe you would not hear this nonsense.

Police, who work on occassion, in basements, elevator shafts, around a lot of noise, etc; can use it so can the fire service.

You know that the NFPA writes up what the firefighters want. Their "regultions" are make work rules.

 

[guitarbrian30]

interesting boys

me being a firefighter and listening to and using the state digital trunked system for the fire ground does got me kinda spooked to say the least.

I will be the first to say. fire ground chatter is crazy enough. where is the water at. is always the issue. when you need it you need it right.

Our interior atttack uses the same talk group as everyone else does.

I will have to find the scanner stream of the radio chatter about two fire men that were injured in a recent explosion in a garage. talk about a heart racing moment.

My question is. do they make a vhf trunked repeater( not what it is) but like it. for close command operations. in our fire coverage area we have gray zones where radio contact is always well gray. many times to connect. We only get busy signals during tornado season when the tower is getting spanked from the traffic. I will have to run my uni-trunker program to see the activity on the tower.

I will say that state is making more freq's available on the busy towers and have been aggressive this past year at upgrading/reprograming the radio's. We do use have the cabablity through the radios to use the analog talk-around channel and repeater channel if needed. we have used those during training sessions.

Anyway thanks guys for your insight. Makes a guy stop and think. I do not agree with you all beating each other up. I thought we all enjoy this hobby. That is enough of the bashing. agree to disagree at least. everyone does have idea's on what is right and what is wrong.

My thoughts are to the firemen that lost there lives. It all is risk verses reward. Was it worth the risk?

 

[N_Jay]

It has too be that people are equating digital with encryption. They are not the same.

I think we cleared that up on the first page.
(and yes, some seem to like making that mistake)

Digital works well all over.
If the fire chiefs would stop the unions from crying about everything then maybe you would not hear this nonsense.

There are some real issues with high noise environments, but to be truthful, even analog did not work in some of the environments that the firefighters defined.

You know that the NFPA writes up what the firefighters want. Their "regultions" are make work rules.

There is some truth to that, but it is the best we have for now.