Digital voice on GMRS

[TangoFox]

With the fast talking and 10 different convo's going on at the same time at busy airports I don't think digital would be well suited. There is a reason it's still AM.

That's fair, I'm one of the controllers who talks fast and can get extremely busy. We run into a lot of readback/hearback errors that could be solved by digital. And lots and lots of interference on VHF Air bands that we have to deal with. I'm not even gonna dive into the voice switching capabilities & security aspect of it, but we'd benefit from that as well.

The reason it's still 100% AM is $$$, let's not fool ourselves. I don't want to side track this thread though.

 

[NC1]

You are missing the point about what GMRS is intended for.

Thinking I may be somewhat misinformed, I looked it up.
Here's what a few websites have to say about what GMRS is supposed to be used for:

1) GMRS and FRS radios are intended for families and for personal use.
2) A GMRS individual license extends to immediate family members and authorizes them to use the licensed system. GMRS license holders are allowed to communicate with FRS users on those frequencies that are shared between the two services.
(----My note - it appears FRS would also have to be capable of a digital mode as well?----)
3) GMRS and FRS radios and their assigned frequencies are intended for personal and family use only, as a way for friends and families to stay in touch with each other while enjoying outdoor sports and activities like hiking or camping, while traveling, at theme parks and festivals or when shopping at the mall.
4) The United States permits use by adult individuals who possess a valid GMRS license, as well as their immediate family members. Immediate relatives of the GMRS system licensee are entitled to communicate among themselves for personal or business.

I don't think I need go any further. So, what is it that implementing a digital mode on GMRS will accomplish that doing the same on the 70cm amateur band cannot? I see no need or advantage for the vast majority of those who have a license, there are only a handful that want to for something that is already being done on the amateur bands.

 

[prcguy]

The fact that amateur radio has digital has nothing to do with people wanting digital on GMRS. I want to play with digital on GMRS and have a P25 capable Quantar GMRS repeater that I would like to cut loose in digital mode.

Thinking I may be somewhat misinformed, I looked it up.
Here's what a few websites have to say about what GMRS is supposed to be used for:

1) GMRS and FRS radios are intended for families and for personal use.
2) A GMRS individual license extends to immediate family members and authorizes them to use the licensed system. GMRS license holders are allowed to communicate with FRS users on those frequencies that are shared between the two services.
(----My note - it appears FRS would also have to be capable of a digital mode as well?----)
3) GMRS and FRS radios and their assigned frequencies are intended for personal and family use only, as a way for friends and families to stay in touch with each other while enjoying outdoor sports and activities like hiking or camping, while traveling, at theme parks and festivals or when shopping at the mall.
4) The United States permits use by adult individuals who possess a valid GMRS license, as well as their immediate family members. Immediate relatives of the GMRS system licensee are entitled to communicate among themselves for personal or business.

I don't think I need go any further. So, what is it that implementing a digital mode on GMRS will accomplish that doing the same on the 70cm amateur band cannot? I see no need or advantage for the vast majority of those who have a license, there are only a handful that want to for something that is already being done on the amateur bands.

 

[mmckenna]

So, what is it that implementing a digital mode on GMRS will accomplish that doing the same on the 70cm amateur band cannot? I see no need or advantage for the vast majority of those who have a license, there are only a handful that want to for something that is already being done on the amateur bands.

Not everyone wants their ham license. Some have no desire to learn the technical knowledge required to earn their license. Some don't want to do random contacts, they just want to communicate with their family. Some just want some basic radios they can hand to family members.

I've been a ham for a long time. I tried for many years to get others interested in amateur radio. No luck. I was able to get them on GMRS. I set them up with commercial UHF radios, and I had access to a high level GMRS repeater. That served our needs very well without each and every user required to get their amateur radio license.

As for why digital?
Good question. I was always happy with analog. But after running several digital systems at work, there are advantages to digital on GMRS. Not everyone will agree, and that's OK. Nice thing is that digital isn't even a real option right now for GMRS, so there's really no need to argue it.

 

[NC1]

The fact that amateur radio has digital has nothing to do with people wanting digital on GMRS. I want to play with digital on GMRS and have a P25 capable Quantar GMRS repeater that I would like to cut loose in digital mode.

OK, but WHY must it be GMRS? Pretend I'm the FCC and you want to convince me with very valid reasons - ones that would fulfill a communications need where everyone benefits. You will never convince them with "I want to, that's why".

 

[NC1]

Not everyone wants their ham license. Some have no desire to learn the technical knowledge required to earn their license. Some don't want to do random contacts, they just want to communicate with their family. Some just want some basic radios they can hand to family members.

I've been a ham for a long time. I tried for many years to get others interested in amateur radio. No luck. I was able to get them on GMRS. I set them up with commercial UHF radios, and I had access to a high level GMRS repeater. That served our needs very well without each and every user required to get their amateur radio license.

As for why digital?
Good question. I was always happy with analog. But after running several digital systems at work, there are advantages to digital on GMRS. Not everyone will agree, and that's OK. Nice thing is that digital isn't even a real option right now for GMRS, so there's really no need to argue it.

I understand where you are coming from, got it, and there is no argument there for sure. You kind of made one of my points when you wrote "Some have no desire to learn the technical knowledge required to earn their license. Some don't want to do random contacts, they just want to communicate with their family." Well, if something like DMR were instituted, then guess what? Now anybody who wants to use it has to learn all this technical stuff if they don't have a local neighborhood geek to program this stuff. Sure it would be easy for us, but the average user will be left in the dust. Many people who paid good money for their license should have access to all the channels, but putting digital repeaters up will narrow their availability to analog users. Actually, it will prevent communication because analog users will not be able to communicate with digital users. If you need the channel for emergency contact, how can a digital user ask an analog user to clear the frequency for a moment, or relay a message for an ambulance?

All your concerns about friends and family not wanting to get their amateur license is all good and well, and they can all use GMRS right now without needing a digital mode, so I still fail to see the need for digital on GMRS.

 

[prcguy]

Everything else is going digital, if they allow DMR then a channel can accommodate twice the traffic and finally advance into this century.

Give me a reason not to allow digital. Just one valid reason. And not being compatible with my 1970s wide band radio is not a valid reason.

OK, but WHY must it be GMRS? Pretend I'm the FCC and you want to convince me with very valid reasons - ones that would fulfill a communications need where everyone benefits. You will never convince them with "I want to, that's why".

 

[mmckenna]

Now anybody who wants to use it has to learn all this technical stuff if they don't have a local neighborhood geek to program this stuff.

No. I have 450 users on my digital trunked system and there are exactly 3 users that know anything about how the system works. One of them is me, and the other two are people that work for me,

As for the programming, most hardcore GMRS users have figured that out already. And many of those hard core GMRS uses are also hams….
Don't overlook the "Pre-programmed" GMRS radios that are on the market right now. Those come programmed from the factory, both cheap consumer/FRS grade radios and slightly higher end Midland type mobiles.

Sure it would be easy for us, but the average user will be left in the dust. Many people who paid good money for their license should have access to all the channels, but putting digital repeaters up will narrow their availability to analog users. Actually, it will prevent communication because analog users will not be able to communicate with digital users. If you need the channel for emergency contact, how can a digital user ask an analog user to clear the frequency for a moment, or relay a message for an ambulance?

All valid points.
GMRS was never intended as a emergency resource. With many users utilizing CTCSS/DCS codes on receive, they wouldn't hear someone calling for help anyway. One of the nice benefits of GMRS, as compared to CB, is that you can run a coded squelch and not have to listen to all the other users. We always ran PL tones so we could leave the radios on and not listen to other users. As for the high level repeater we had access to, the tone I had on it was not one of the standard tones, so most lower end radios didn't even have the capability to use the repeater.

All your concerns about friends and family not wanting to get their amateur license is all good and well, and they can all use GMRS right now without needing a digital mode, so I still fail to see the need for digital on GMRS.

I concur. And I don't think the FCC should change anything. It's fine as analog.
But eventually as the rest of the two way radio industry goes digital, so will all the radios on the used market. Manufacturers may not be interested in maintaining low volume analog radio lines just for the handful of serious GMRS users that periodically need a new radio.

If anything, I'm willing to bet that the consistent influx of Cheap Chinese Radios will end up pushing this. We've already got a ton of uneducated GMRS users that will buy whatever cheap azz UHF radio that Amazon Reviews tells them to. Eventually those DMR capable CCR's will force this one way or the other. Would be nice for the FCC to get out in front of that, but it would require someone with more energy and desire than me to ask the FCC to allow some flavor of digital.

 

[NC1]

Give me a reason not to allow digital. Just one valid reason.

It's not that a reason is needed to NOT allow it.
If you want to do it, then it's up to you to make a solid case as to WHY it is needed and show that it will benefit everyone who paid for and holds a valid GMRS license that grants them 8 channel pairs. There needs to be a justifiable reason, or they won't consider it, which is what happened last time.
Please explain how it will benefit everyone, or maybe at least 80% of them. How would you convince the FCC, other than "it would be cool", "everyone else has it", "it's got 2 channels", or "I want to". If you were sitting in front of them in a meeting, what would you say?

 

[mmckenna]

Give me a reason not to allow digital. Just one valid reason. And not being compatible with my 1970s wide band radio is not a valid reason.

I agree 100%

But I'm sure we'll hear the "I shouldn't have to" argument...

Everything else is going digital, if they allow DMR then a channel can accommodate twice the traffic and finally advance into this century.

Or, 6.25KHz channels and do the same thing.

I agree, DMR is a cool resource, but there's other ways to skin a cat.
I know the Motorola Fan-Boi's will want MotoTrbo as the only permitted digital mode on GMRS, but I'd be really surprised if that happened. No one, other than said Fan-Boi's and Motorola, would stand for anything proprietary on GMRS. Open DMR, not the Motorola flavor, would be fine.

But looking at what ITU is planning on doing with Marine VHF, I think TDMA might have some challengers.

 

[mmckenna]

How would you convince the FCC, other than "it would be cool", "everyone else has it", "it's got 2 channels", or "I want to". If you were sitting in front of them in a meeting, what would you say?

Simply because that's the way Technology forces us to move.

Same reason we are not still running spark gap transmitters on ham. Same reason we are not running wider than 25KHz channels on GMRS. Same reason we're not running AM on GMRS. Technology improves and the regulations have to play catch up. FCC is often well behind the crest of the wave.

 

[GlobalNorth]

Once upon a time, I wanted an amateur license. The technology was relatively simple and HF was king, although 2 meters had a substantive following. The problems of the time were that I was poor, worked a lot of OT, lived in an apartment, and couldn't commit.

Now, I have the time, spare cash, but when I listen to 40 meters - it has evolved into a bunch of retirees comparing their physical and political miseries with each other. Gear is expensive to stupidly expensive. HOAs have taken over and hate antennae. Many amateurs act bi-polar towards new members; they want new people for their hobby and clubs, but they have to be just like them in interests, otherwise they don't want them anywhere near the hobby. Elmers are non-existent and existing club members treat knowledge like welfare - they don't want to give it to anyone. Cemeteries are where all the amateur knowledge is going to reside in the near future.

GMRS/MURS does what I want without all the GAS [Gear Acquisition Syndrome] and the requisite learning curve of how to establish a P-25 system on 70cm. They even have weekly nets for the ragchewers that aren't on SSI yet.

I'm with mmckenna on this one.

 

[SQP]

So, you want digital, EH?!?!? WHO'S DIGITAL?!?!?!? Now STARTS the conversation.

 

[mmckenna]

I'm with mmckenna on this one.

Welcome, friend.

 

[NC1]

Simply because that's the way Technology forces us to move.

I would agree with that if there were serious issues with the current format (analog FM), however, there are no notable problems, therefore there is no force driving a change. It is working fine right now. Quite honestly I can't think of a single one that has enough impact to require any change. Changing just to "keep up" has no benefit to a vast majority of users.

 

[mmckenna]

I would agree with that if there were serious issues with the current format (analog FM), however, there are no notable problems, therefore there is no force driving a change. It is working fine right now. Quite honestly I can't think of a single one that has enough impact to require any change. Changing just to "keep up" has no benefit to a vast majority of users.

Sure.

But when has that ever stopped the progression of technology?

 

[12dbsinad]

To be honest, I think the FCC would just like to see GMRS go away. They originally created this mess. The brainchild who thought to split off the GMRS channels to 12.5 Khz FRS while GMRS continued to operate wideband on the 25 Khz channels deserves a trophy.

If the FCC isn't making billions of dollars off the cell companies they typically don't give a rats a**.

 

[nd5y]

DMR only doubles the channel capacity if everybody is on the same repeater.

 

[SQP]

To be honest, I think the FCC would just like to see GMRS go away.

Uh, NOPE!!!! The service is doing just fine...THE WAY IT IS!!!

They originally created this mess.

WHAT MESS?!?...The mess WE are trying to create?!?!?

DMR only doubles the channel capacity if everybody is on the same repeater.

What about...ME?!?!?!?!? I wanna work P25....my friend wanna work NXDN....my neighbor wanna work.................................

Starting to sound......MESSY, eh.

 

[12dbsinad]

Uh, NOPE!!!! The service is doing just fine...THE WAY IT IS!!!

WHAT MESS?!?...The mess WE are trying to create?!?!?

What about...ME?!?!?!?!? I wanna work P25....my friend wanna work NXDN....my neighbor wanna work.................................

Starting to sound......MESSY, eh.

My comment was referring to GMRS radio in a technical standpoint. The general user would have no idea what I'm talking about.