Digital voice on GMRS

[alcahuete]

What about...ME?!?!?!?!? I wanna work P25....my friend wanna work NXDN....my neighbor wanna work.................................

Starting to sound......MESSY, eh.

Not at all. That's why you have a set STANDARD!?!?!?!?!

 

[PriorMike]

Aluding to what mckenna said about people possibly just going ahead and using a 'digital' CCR from Amazon on GMRS, where I am I get consistent hits of digital on GMRS while commuting to work in the city near where I live. I've confirmed one channel is in heavy use using DMR conventional. I haven't been able to get a solid grip on the others, but it's so bad that I can't hardly scan GMRS in analog for all of the motorboating.

Industry Canada does similar work to the FCC in addition to the other portfolios they have, and I'll venture that they don't care...and it's right in their back yard.

Edit to add: Up here GMRS/FRS is limited to bubble packs. 2 watts, fixed antennas, no repeaters. In other areas of travel I've gotten traffic that is clearly using more power and better antennas, so in addition to the digital mentioned above, people just don't give a rats about the rules and will do what works for them.

 

[CaptDan]

I fit in the category of the GMRS operator who uses GMRS and FRS and MURS systems as a tool for communications on my own farm, and to communicate with neighbors. Everyone working in the field, actually the woods as we are timberland, has a radio. Every piece of equipment has a radio, all road legal vehicles have mobile radios, the tractors and other off road equipment generally use hand held units.


While I have been around radios most of my life, heck been in charge of systems with thousands of radios, I'm not a tech guy. That being said, any half wit can program a Radioddity GD-77 to transmit digital, also add some encryption to it. Not legal for any of the systems we use, but easy as pie to be done. I could show a computer savvy 10 year old how to do it in 10 minutes.


While there may be some technical advantages to allowing digital on GMRS etc. The ONLY one I saw as an end user would be the capability to send a text message to all or a specific radio. Other than that, as I have posted before, the only thing I care about as the end user is that when I transmit, the unit I want to communicate with hears the message.

Just one mans opinion - no one has to agree with me

 

[jonwienke]

You can do the same with digital voice traffic, not just text messages. Call a single radio, a specific group of radios, or everyone.

 

[NC1]

But when has that ever stopped the progression of technology?

Keeping GMRS as analog is not stopping any technology. Plenty of newer technology on the Amateur bands for those who want to experiment. I mean seriously, what is the difference of experimenting on 448MHz where it is already in use and tons of others with the mindset, vs 467 MHz where the majority of people are not interested in it?

Nobody will answer this one question: How will going digital be of benefit to all the license holders? And I mean a real quantifiable and remarkably noticeable improvement that most any average license holder will notice without being told what was done.

 

[jonwienke]

• Double the number of usable channels vs analog.
• Digital has more options--call a single user, a specific group of users, or everyone.
• Easier to set up a repeater with TDMA, no duplexer needed.
• Single-frequency repeat programming can be the same as simplex for users, so simplex is a seamless fallback if the repeater fails.
• Reduce the overlap interference between 25KHz GMRS channels and the neighboring 12.5KHz FRS channels.

 

[alcahuete]

• Double the number of usable channels vs analog.
• Digital has more options--call a single user, a specific group of users, or everyone.
• Easier to set up a repeater with TDMA, no duplexer needed.
• Single-frequency repeat programming can be the same as simplex for users, so simplex is a seamless fallback if the repeater fails.
• Reduce the overlap interference between 25KHz GMRS channels and the neighboring 12.5KHz FRS channels.

• No static.
• Better readability on the fringes of coverage.
• Longer battery life.

There is quite a lot that can be gained by going digital.

Plenty of newer technology on the Amateur bands for those who want to experiment. I mean seriously, what is the difference of experimenting on 448MHz where it is already in use and tons of others with the mindset, vs 467 MHz where the majority of people are not interested in it?

How do you know the majority of people are not interested in it? Did you take some poll of all the GMRS users?

How about the people who aren't hams? You seem to be caught up on the fact that somehow all the GMRS users are ham operators as well, so if anyone wants to experiment, they can just use their ham privileges. That just isn't the case. The majority of GMRS users are not hams and have no desire to get their ham license.

 

[mmckenna]

Keeping GMRS as analog is not stopping any technology.

Nope, it's not.

But time marches on. Like I said, at one time the predecessor to GMRS was AM. People were fine with that because it was the only option. Like everything else, I'm sure people complained when GMRS was created and it was FM.

Someone, somewhere, is going to ask the FCC for it. At some point it'll happen. May not be next year, may not be in the next 10 years, but it'll happen.

End users will figure it out and want it. Many may not know they 'need' it now, but once they do, they'll want the latest/greatest, and will get it one way or the other. I think this thread shows that there is plenty of interest in digital on GMRS.

As was said above, the guys with the 40 year old GE repeaters on GMRS will jamb their stick in the ground and refuse to move. They'll eventually get left behind, reminiscing about the good old days. Sort of like some ham radio operators lamenting how things were always better 'back then'.

Leaving GMRS back in the 20th century doesn't benefit anyone. Moving on with technology does. If you cannot see the benefits to digital, then I'm not sure how to help you.

 

[DeoVindice]

There are several people licensed for digital on GMRS. A friend of mine had dinner with an FCC person a few years back and he brought up the question and was told to just apply for it and it would probably be granted as an experimental license. At the time we didn't have any suitable radios and it never went anywhere but we have lots of P25 radios now and P25 capable repeaters on GMRS in analog only mode. I will bring this up with him again and see if we can get something going.

That's intriguing. The county adjacent to me is scrapping the old UHF analog system used by its VFD. Their main site is on a tower owned by a friend of mine; I'd like to see about taking it over for GMRS (or getting a frequency pair coordinated and putting up a Quantar for my company). P25 on GMRS would be interesting for the weak-signal benefits - that tower isn't a monster but the other business band repeater on it has decent coverage into some remote areas.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I wish they did digital. Having the ability to go digital for better range and encryption for privacy would be great.

NOPE It will sound like crap.

 

[NC1]

How about the people who aren't hams? You seem to be caught up on the fact that somehow all the GMRS users are ham operators as well, so if anyone wants to experiment, they can just use their ham privileges. That just isn't the case. The majority of GMRS users are not hams and have no desire to get their ham license.

I do agree that the majority of GMRS users are not hams and have no desire to get their ham license. Why would that be? Probably because they don't want to get thrown into all the technical aspects. Right now it is very simple, user friendly, and most importantly - it is working just fine as it is for the overwhelming majority. All the so-called "improvements" of bringing digital to GMRS are extremely marginal at best for a minuscule number of licensee's.

What is the need for 2 digital channels when a single channel analog repeater sits idle 97% of the time? The overwhelming majority will not get any benefit from it.
A fringe signal on analog is about the same distance as a fringe signal on digital, there are arguments both ways on this so let's just leave it at that. The overwhelming majority will not get any benefit from it.
Calling a single user, a specific group of users, or everyone will maybe be mainly used by groups or clubs, most people have no desire to figure this stuff out. The overwhelming majority will not get any benefit from it.
Easier to set up a repeater with TDMA, no duplexer needed. Ummmmm, right. The vast overwhelming majority will not get any benefit from it.
Reduce the overlap interference between 25KHz GMRS channels and the neighboring 12.5KHz FRS channels? What? The overwhelming majority will not get any benefit from it, or even understand it, or try to.


All these things are not needed to keep up with the times, it works as intended.
I guess when all you have is a hammer, then everything you see looks like a nail. The best way to screw something up is to try and fix what isn't broke.
Now, if going digital would make a 5 watt HT go 50 miles with great reception and make a little battery last 10 hours of talk time, then I would certainly be an advocate for digital. But as of right now I do not see the benefit outweighing the changes needed. The old radios will not work with the new format - therefore creating problems for some time. The FCC will not be convinced for at least 20+ years to do anything. If family and friends need digital over analog, then they need to get their Tech license, or use their cellphone.

 

[jonwienke]

Doubling the number of usable channels applies to simplex as well as repeaters. And yes FRS does get crowded sometimes, so your comment about repeaters is irrelevant.

Alsi, more people would set up and use repeaters if they didn't require expensive and difficult-to-tune duplexers.

Look up the channel specs. If GMRS channels are 25KHz, then there is a 6.25KHz overlap between the GMRS and FRS channels. That guarantees interference between FRS and GMRS users.

And TDMA digital TX uses half the power of analog TX for the same range.

So yes, there are benefits for non-technical people to switch to digital.

 

[NC1]

So yes, there are benefits for non-technical people to switch to digital.

But the marginal gains that will benefit some users is not nearly enough to make everybody (100%) go out and buy newer more expensive radios and related equipment so they can use GMRS again. I bet most don't and just abandon the service, letting their license lapse - which means the FCC loses money, and they will not take the time and effort to approve things that hurt their income stream.
Follow the money and you can see it's not going to happen, if for any other reason than that.

 

[jonwienke]

That's a strawman. Nobody is suggesting that any flavor of digital be mandated, just that it be allowed if people want to use it.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

It is not hard for anyone that has a business use to apply for a Part 90 license to utilize P25, DMR or NXDN including encryption.

Otherwise those modes with exception of encryption can be done on ham radio with only a Technician license.

 

[prcguy]

The guy with the highest power, highest site repeater sets the standard.

Not at all. That's why you have a set STANDARD!?!?!?!?!

 

[NC1]

That's a strawman. Nobody is suggesting that any flavor of digital be mandated, just that it be allowed if people want to use it.

And if somebody wants to use different modes, they can either get their ham license, or apply for a pair of business frequencies.
Why drag an entire radio service and it's users along with it into something that is unneeded? I only see a handful of people advocating for a change, the other hundreds of thousands are fine as it is.

 

[mmckenna]

Why drag an entire radio service and it's users along with it into something that is unneeded?

Or, how about this:

Why drag an entire radio service and it's users along back into the 20th century to maintain the comfort level of someone who owns a lot of old equipment?

I only see a handful of people advocating for a change, the other hundreds of thousands are fine as it is.

On the contrary, everyone on this thread is advocating for digital, except for yourself. As for the average GMRS user, most of them have no idea what digital is. Most couldn't tell you if their radio was analog, digital or running on macaroni and cheese. They use analog not because they want to use analog, they use it because that is what the manufacturers have given them. Open up digital in one form or another, and many users would choose that. Add GPS location tags, like Garmin already does, and you'd get a lot of takers.

You do seem to keep going back to ham radio and/or LMR as the only option for someone who wants to run digital. We've beaten the ham radio thing to death. Ham radio is a hobby radio service. That's great for those that want to make it a hobby. Most families don't want GMRS as a hobby radio service. They just want functional radios that meet their needs.
LMR is great for business. If you really want to toe the FCC line on that, general family use doesn't qualify under Part 90. So that's out.
GMRS is the correct location for a family to set up their own radio system for their own use. The options available to them should reflect what's available to the rest of the industry.

And there's not a lot of reasons why analog GMRS could not exist with digital GMRS. Yes, to an analog user with carrier squelch, they may hear things they don't want to. But that's an easy fix.

 

[prcguy]

I think if you were to set up a P25, DMR or other digital GMRS repeater with some good hand held radios and show it to a bunch of current GMRS users, they would say "I gotta have that!". And most if not all would switch over as soon as the repeater was legal and available.

 

[NC1]

No matter how you want to debate the issue, you are still not going to get the FCC to start with digital modes on GMRS.
No way, no how, not going to happen any time soon whatsoever. That was just discussed last year, and soundly rejected.

Hey, how about convincing them into transforming CB into a FM digital service? Now THAT needs updating!
That I could possibly see happening well before GMRS