Digital vs Analog voice

[alcahuete]

Around here I notice the opposite. The analog repeaters do a great job of leveling the repeat audio levels, whereas I am constantly adjusting the volume on my DMR portable. I mean, the variation from one user to another on the digital is the main drawback. The second biggest drawback here on East Coast is lost packets and dropped connections. I want to like the noise free Digital, but a completed QSO is rare. (networked) Local standalone works fine.

And herein lies the problem with amateur radio networks. There is a huge mix of radios with different audio characteristics, where in a commercial environment, you generally have the same or very similar fleet of radios...at least the same brand, normally, and generally all programmed by the same radio shop to have identical settings. As well, everybody in the ham world buys the Cheap Chinese Radios (CCRs), which aren't great to begin with as far as audio is concerned. Packet loss? Haven't experienced that at all. I listen to the Brandmeister WorldWide talkgroup (91) somewhat regularly, and have no issues, even with folks from all around the world. I talk with people on the east coast all the time and they do not have that problem, so it's perhaps an issue with the specific repeater you are using?

If I had to bet, I would also guess that you are using a CCR. On my Motorola XPR5550s and 7550s, I have RX Audio Leveling enabled, and I literally haven't touched my volume knob on DMR in months. It is by far the best feature that has ever been created for DMR radios. The only time I ever touch the knob is on analog.

 

[Giddyuptd]

I'll add to kaynes post to aspect encryption has NO issue on it.

Now for our use we noticed greater range (with well placed sites) on p25, nxdn.

However there is the doom gloom few for their political reasons locally or money needing to spend who shill digital.

As for the fringe of the repeater or site that is where you hear the r2d2 on the fringe. If you have to question it in a place using a repeater in a bowl or flat location, not high up, weak repeater power, old spacing on sites that never been really evaluated since the OLD narrow band aka 30khz, and or 25khz, it isn't digital that is your issue.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Around here I notice the opposite. The analog repeaters do a great job of leveling the repeat audio levels, whereas I am constantly adjusting the volume on my DMR portable. I mean, the variation from one user to another on the digital is the main drawback. The second biggest drawback here on East Coast is lost packets and dropped connections. I want to like the noise free Digital, but a completed QSO is rare. (networked) Local standalone works fine.

That’s hammy hotspots and hammy repeater networks for you.

a commercial system, with all the same subscribers, with up to date firmware, proper audio settings and NO hotspots don’t have the issues you just described.

 

[N4KVE]

That’s hammy hotspots and hammy repeater networks for you.

a commercial system, with all the same subscribers, with up to date firmware, proper audio settings and NO hotspots don’t have the issues you just described.

I must agree with you. On one of the systems here in SE Florida, most of the radios are Motorola, and several are Hytera. All 8 repeaters are Hytera. The audio from the radios is fine. No hot spots are on the system, as there is no C-Bridge. But on another repeater where hot spots are common, & many users are using CCR’s, the audio is quite terrible.

 

[2IR473]

I don’t think there is any question that expensive commercial gear is generally superior to amateur gear, but we are, in fact, amateurs, so I don’t condemn anyone for using inexpensive gear. If you find it annoying or unacceptable to speak with someone on a “CCR”, then just choose not to speak with them. I do that almost 100 % of the time these days on the ham bands.

However, in my experience, many of the “cheap Chinese radios” are suitable for amateur operation. My experience with recent offering from Yaesu have made me swear off buying any more Yaesu V/UHF radios, so I wouldn‘t limit the condemnation of “cheap“ radios to only Chinese radios.

It generally has more to do with a lack of knowledge on the part of the amateur operator. Even in the analog realm, I often hear new hams with a Baofeng radio, and I can immediately tell that they have their audio set to narrow band (that is the usual default setting in the radio), as their audio is low on the repeater, compared to everyone else. I have been telling hams this for a decade, and as soon as they make the correction in their settings, the audio from that $25 radio sounds acceptable. The question of whether it’s “filtered” emissions are acceptable is another discussion. In fact, that narrow banded audio from a cheap Baofeng is not much different to me from the analog audio from expensive Icom radios that are D-Star capable. They tend to sound equally poor to me on analog repeaters.

As such, to the question originally asked, I have found analog signals to be more reliable in a “critical communications” situation, as you can pull the audio out of the white noise when on the fringe. In digital transmissions, the signal will not likely be able to be decoded. But yes, as long as the packets can be reassembled properly by the receiving radio, digital comms will sound the same, whether 60db over S9, or just S1. Fortunately, as amateur radio operators, we have a large selection of emission modes you can use, so no one is forcing us to listen to something we don’t want to.

 

[alcahuete]

I don’t think there is any question that expensive commercial gear is generally superior to amateur gear, but we are, in fact, amateurs, so I don’t condemn anyone for using inexpensive gear. If you find it annoying or unacceptable to speak with someone on a “CCR”, then just choose not to speak with them. I do that almost 100 % of the time these days on the ham bands.

It seems you missed the point entirely. The OP asked about performance and range, and we have a ham saying that he finds analog to be better than digital because of the constant differences in audio quality and volume, and packet loss on digital. That is NOT due to the digital mode. It's due to hams using crappy equipment, plain and simple.

And don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. If I was in the position of being a ham who didn't have much money to spend, or was just getting into the hobby or something and it's between a $25 radio and not entering the hobby, sure, I would buy the Baofreng.

However, you CANNOT say that the myriad of problems hams face using digital because of that is because you are using digital instead of analog. It's because they are using crappy equipment vs. good equipment.

 

[MTS2000des]

The issue I observe is that DMR (aka School Bus) radios and their implementation in amateur radio is very poor and without a lack of centralized planning for fleet mapping, allowing network chaos of hot spots, repeaters, C-bridges, no standards for codeplug creation/audio settings, low cost subscribers with dubious/poor firmware/DSP, a lack of understanding of how these systems work. DMR was, and will always be, a business class COMMERCIAL application for COMMERCIAL business customers, with a "closed system architecture" topology that is the equivalent of Tom Hanks putting together a square air filter to fit into a round socket as was demonstrated in the movie "Apollo 13". Sure, it was made to work, but far from ideal.

There are some excellent implementations of DMR aka School Bus radios in the ham world and some networks that have tight restrictions on subscribers (even some with RAS to keep control of the network), and those are examples of hams at their best. Some not so good and painful to listen to.

My personal opinion is the "designed by and for HAM radio" digital voice formats such as System Fusion and D-Star offer greater advantages: low cost non-commercial gear means no proprietary expensive programming software, cables, or licensing agreements to legally buy said products. No restrictions or "hacking" to overcome mandated narrowband programming on analog FM, true VFO operation allowing one to "scan" for new activity on unpublished/updated/new repeaters and simplex, features like APRS, cross band, etc. A much easier learning curve for the new folks and factory support whereas commercial school bus radio are for commercial users and don't expect a local authorized dealer to answer dozens of questions of codeplug authoring, resolving issues, etc.

and for the record...the intended target market for DMR/MotoTRBO....lol



Analog FM voice is as common and standardized in every ham shack. The other disadvantage to DMR in particular is lack of mixed mode support in subscribers to support true mixed mode voice on a single frequency/repeater the way System Fusion, D-Star and even other commercial digital voice formats like NXDN and P-25.

That being said, every active ham these days has at least one dual band WoC wonder or HT on...wait for it...ANALOG FM. If the goal is to be able to talk to new people, analog is the most easy, interoperable and commonality among the ham world.

Digital is nice, but it does wall one in, regardless of the format flavor of the day.

 

[romanr]

The issue I observe is that DMR (aka School Bus) radios and their implementation in amateur radio is very poor and without a lack of centralized planning for fleet mapping, allowing network chaos of hot spots, repeaters, C-bridges, no standards for codeplug creation/audio settings, low cost subscribers with dubious/poor firmware/DSP, a lack of understanding of how these systems work. DMR was, and will always be, a business class COMMERCIAL application for COMMERCIAL business customers, with a "closed system architecture" topology that is the equivalent of Tom Hanks putting together a square air filter to fit into a round socket as was demonstrated in the movie "Apollo 13". Sure, it was made to work, but far from ideal.

There are some excellent implementations of DMR aka School Bus radios in the ham world and some networks that have tight restrictions on subscribers (even some with RAS to keep control of the network), and those are examples of hams at their best. Some not so good and painful to listen to.

My personal opinion is the "designed by and for HAM radio" digital voice formats such as System Fusion and D-Star offer greater advantages: low cost non-commercial gear means no proprietary expensive programming software, cables, or licensing agreements to legally buy said products. No restrictions or "hacking" to overcome mandated narrowband programming on analog FM, true VFO operation allowing one to "scan" for new activity on unpublished/updated/new repeaters and simplex, features like APRS, cross band, etc. A much easier learning curve for the new folks and factory support whereas commercial school bus radio are for commercial users and don't expect a local authorized dealer to answer dozens of questions of codeplug authoring, resolving issues, etc.

and for the record...the intended target market for DMR/MotoTRBO....lol

View attachment 84134

Analog FM voice is as common and standardized in every ham shack. The other disadvantage to DMR in particular is lack of mixed mode support in subscribers to support true mixed mode voice on a single frequency/repeater the way System Fusion, D-Star and even other commercial digital voice formats like NXDN and P-25.

That being said, every active ham these days has at least one dual band WoC wonder or HT on...wait for it...ANALOG FM. If the goal is to be able to talk to new people, analog is the most easy, interoperable and commonality among the ham world.

Digital is nice, but it does wall one in, regardless of the format flavor of the day.

Never one to send mixed messages....




...and yet another...

 

[paulears]

Practically, the difference is simple. Would you rather have hissy, difficult to read comms when people are in the fringes of reception? Analogue means you can wave the radio around to coax the last bit of range. Digital keeps going, and going, then simply stops. The snag being if you have the radio in your pocket at the maximum range - it might, or might not burst into life, but it won't give you difficult audio to read.

 

[romanr]

There is one aspect of this topic that I don't see mentioned often - squelch setting.
No one in a practical setting is going to sit listening with the squelch open. Many of those fringe reception scenarios are based on what the human ear can extract from the receiver audio in very low signal-to-noise situations - but this isn't the way the real world uses these radios. As paulears says above, the radio "might, or might not burst into life".

Digital modes don't squelch the audio based on raw RF signal level like most analog receivers do - they 'squelch' audio based on bit error rate and decode success. All of the aforementioned caveats apply, but for any range comparison to have practical validity, it should compare digital to normally squelched analog.

Throw into this mix the unsophisticated TX audio handling and poor error recovery of less expensive radios along with the elevated occurrence of packet loss on the sub-par backhaul links (e.g. hot spots), and most comparisons have SO many different variables changing that they are far from valid. DMR can be very good, but DMR has given the amateur community more than enough rope to separate those who can make a bridge from those who will hang themselves.

 

[mmckenna]

Never one to send mixed messages....

Yeah, but to be realistic, that is not Motorola in the USA marketing Trbo to public safety. Motorola here in the states would NEVER market it that way. In fact, I specifically had Motorola sales guys tell me that if it was public safety, it HAD to be P25.

But yes, we all know that it works fine for that application. Issue is that Motorola can't charge more for it.

 

[CharlieWhiskey]

And herein lies the problem with amateur radio networks. There is a huge mix of radios with different audio characteristics, where in a commercial environment, you generally have the same or very similar fleet of radios...at least the same brand, normally, and generally all programmed by the same radio shop to have identical settings. As well, everybody in the ham world buys the Cheap Chinese Radios (CCRs), which aren't great to begin with as far as audio is concerned. Packet loss? Haven't experienced that at all. I listen to the Brandmeister WorldWide talkgroup (91) somewhat regularly, and have no issues, even with folks from all around the world. I talk with people on the east coast all the time and they do not have that problem, so it's perhaps an issue with the specific repeater you are using?

If I had to bet, I would also guess that you are using a CCR. On my Motorola XPR5550s and 7550s, I have RX Audio Leveling enabled, and I literally haven't touched my volume knob on DMR in months. It is by far the best feature that has ever been created for DMR radios. The only time I ever touch the knob is on analog.

Actually, I have one CCR and one XPR portable.I have not enabled the RX Audio Leveling, so I will try that. I monitor the USA TG just to hear the various QSO's and the other day, again, one ham sounds like he is whispering, and the guy he was talking to sounds like he is screaming.

Another QSO, just today, I'm only hearing one side of the QSO. On both the CCR and the XPR. That's the network.

 

[alcahuete]

Actually, I have...one XPR portable.

Oh hell, then you've been doing it wrong this whole time! I get it. XPRs are NOT ham radios, and are not designed with hams in mind. There are going to be some quirks involved, you're not going to have the same features, the names and locations are not going to show up on the display, etc. I get it. I really do. I own a few CCRs myself basically as throw-away radios out on the boat, etc.

But I promise you, when you go to the XPR and have it set up right, specifically with the audio leveling and such, you're going to have a very hard time going back to the CCR when it comes to listening. It has literally changed my life. ha ha!! And this is especially true when I'm mobile. I can't imagine not having an XPR and trying to adjust the volume constantly while driving.

If you don't have the entitlement already in your radio, it only costs like $3 or so for the entitlement. Worth every penny.

 

[MTS2000des]

The problem I have is that all it takes is one turd subscriber with garbage audio, or one hotspot full of packet loss, to ruin a network. And therein lies the elephant in the room: no real control over the network. Then, when someone does actually try to exercise control/standard, they get slammed for this. No win situation.

I gave up on school bus radios when things got away from technical excellence and became a form of CB radio. Replace "linear amplifier" and "echo mikes" with CCRs/poorly configured subscribers, bad codeplugs, hot spots gone wild, unidentified kerchunking to keep talk groups active, and audio that makes one's go into a misophonic rage.

 

[N4KVE]

Yeah, but to be realistic, that is not Motorola in the USA marketing Trbo to public safety. Motorola here in the states would NEVER market it that way. In fact, I specifically had Motorola sales guys tell me that if it was public safety, it HAD to be P25.

But yes, we all know that it works fine for that application. Issue is that Motorola can't charge more for it.

But how about the radio itself? Since the APX900 is a P25 first cousin to the XPR7550, do you think a firefighter, or cop would carry an APX900? Maybe a city employee sitting in an office, but not a firefighter. They’ll carry an APX6000/8000 because they‘re 10 times more rugged.

 

[JRayfield]

Yeah, but to be realistic, that is not Motorola in the USA marketing Trbo to public safety. Motorola here in the states would NEVER market it that way. In fact, I specifically had Motorola sales guys tell me that if it was public safety, it HAD to be P25.

But yes, we all know that it works fine for that application. Issue is that Motorola can't charge more for it.

"Motorola here in the states would NEVER market it that way.".

I have a 6 foot banner, showing a firefighter with a MOTOTRBO radio, promoting MOTOTRBO for public safety. This banner was purchased by me, from Motorola in Schaumburg, in 2007 or 2008, during a time when Motorola in the U.S. was promoting MOTOTRBO for public safety. They also published a Case Study of a MOTOTRBO system in the Southeast U.S. that was put in specifically for the public safety agencies in a county.

John

 

[romanr]

"Motorola here in the states would NEVER market it that way.".

I have a 6 foot banner, showing a firefighter with a MOTOTRBO radio, promoting MOTOTRBO for public safety. This banner was purchased by me, from Motorola in Schaumburg, in 2007 or 2008, during a time when Motorola in the U.S. was promoting MOTOTRBO for public safety. They also published a Case Study of a MOTOTRBO system in the Southeast U.S. that was put in specifically for the public safety agencies in a county.

John

The first brochure in my post (#28) was from 2008 and it *was* targeted for the US public safety market.

The second brochure was from 2011 and it was a case study from Taiwan, but clearly targeted for the Firefighter market.

I won't argue whether or not the APX6000/8000 is more rugged than the APX900/XPR7550, but the biggest reason that firefighters carry the APX6000XE/8000XE is because a salesman convinced someone spending taxpayer money to give these to the Fire Personnel.

 

[MTS2000des]

They also published a Case Study of a MOTOTRBO system in the Southeast U.S. that was put in specifically for the public safety agencies in a county.

My how times change, as both of the major TRDO systems they sold to unnamed agencies here in the SE are being phased out for...wait for it...Astro 25. Why? Because its was the wrong tool for the job. TRDO is great for school buses, security companies, hotels, and other closed network applications where cost is a key concern.

Ergo, it's use in ham radio has shown it's limitations as an "interoperable" medium where disparate networks collide with dropped packets, lackluster audio, and challenging experiences for new hams. YSF and D-Star are relatively painless in comparison, and YSF in particular has some of the best audio I've heard, rivaling our $6800 APX8000s and $10,000 APX8500s on our $19.1 million dollar Astro 25 LSM trunked radio network. The ease of being able to have an out of box experience where one can literally VFO in a YSF repeater and GOTA with good digital audio, easy to get on wide area systems, and just HAVE FUN without pissing away hours building codeplugs, dealing with buggy CPS and garbage pail firmware from offshore products, or living within the limits of a radio system designed for school buses and mall security hodgepodged for ham radio.

 

[N8FNR]

My how times change, as both of the major TRDO systems they sold to unnamed agencies here in the SE are being phased out for...wait for it...Astro 25. Why? Because its was the wrong tool for the job. TRDO is great for school buses, security companies, hotels, and other closed network applications where cost is a key concern.

Ergo, it's use in ham radio has shown it's limitations as an "interoperable" medium where disparate networks collide with dropped packets, lackluster audio, and challenging experiences for new hams. YSF and D-Star are relatively painless in comparison, and YSF in particular has some of the best audio I've heard, rivaling our $6800 APX8000s and $10,000 APX8500s on our $19.1 million dollar Astro 25 LSM trunked radio network. The ease of being able to have an out of box experience where one can literally VFO in a YSF repeater and GOTA with good digital audio, easy to get on wide area systems, and just HAVE FUN without pissing away hours building codeplugs, dealing with buggy CPS and garbage pail firmware from offshore products, or living within the limits of a radio system designed for school buses and mall security hodgepodged for ham radio.

Bought an Anytone AT-D878 DMR HT last year and put off using it until this last month. Found a DMR FB group and a guy in Michigan sent me a codeplug that works for our area. Now I am trying to modify my working plug and this is not a lot of fun. I will figure it out but the the software is not the best. You cannot copy more than 1 line at a time and you cannot always even delete a line. Very weird.

On the other hand I bought a Icom ID-51a+2 D-star HT last month. Since we are locked down I figured that I had plenty of time to learn something new. Bought the RT systems software for it at the same time. I find programming the Icom a lot more intuitive.

If someone wanted to get on digital voice and there were a lot of DMR and D-star repeaters in the area I would suggest they go D-star. Operating is more fun than working on codeplugs.

Zack N8FNR

 

[bill4long]

I must agree with you. On one of the systems here in SE Florida, most of the radios are Motorola, and several are Hytera. All 8 repeaters are Hytera. The audio from the radios is fine. No hot spots are on the system, as there is no C-Bridge. But on another repeater where hot spots are common, & many users are using CCR’s, the audio is quite terrible.

Terrible audio in what way?