Discone Question

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safetyobc

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Hello,

I picked up a discone from Lee Electronics on ebay for $21.00!!! I thought that was a great deal. Anyway, my plan is to mount this antenna in my attic. I have a Scantenna on a pole up at about 30' and it does great for me. I wanted this discone for a backup and to use with my Pro-97 from time to time.

Can I mount the discone on PVC pipe? Or does it need to be an aluminum type tubing like a regular antenna pole?

Also what is the best coax........ and by best I mean cheapest good stuff, coax do I need to use. I need the connectors already installed (PL239? and BNC)

The Scantenna came with coax, connectors etc. so it was a no brainer but I am antenna ignorant so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks for any information.

matt
 

VernM

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1. It wants a ground, either pole or a wire run from the antenna mount to a real earth ground.

2. Best coax depends on how long the run will be. Up to 50 feet, fresh RG-58 will work but fresh RG-8X will be better. Over 50 feet, fresh (new) RG-8X or, if you can afford and the insillation allows, RG-8. Over 100 feet, RG-8. Get a good brand; Belden or Wireman (www.thewireman.com), etc.
 

safetyobc

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VernM said:
1. It wants a ground, either pole or a wire run from the antenna mount to a real earth ground.

2. Best coax depends on how long the run will be. Up to 50 feet, fresh RG-58 will work but fresh RG-8X will be better. Over 50 feet, fresh (new) RG-8X or, if you can afford and the insillation allows, RG-8. Over 100 feet, RG-8. Get a good brand; Belden or Wireman (www.thewireman.com), etc.

Thanks.

It should be no more than 20' run of Coax if mounted in the attic. Where do I attach the ground to the antenna? One of the radials?
 

safetyobc

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VernM said:
No. The ground should attach directly to the antenna mounting hardware, or the mast pole (metal).

The way I see it, it sits on top of a pole and only has 2 little set screws to hold it in place. So how would I ground it?
 

VernM

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A discone works a very great deal better with an earth ground to its base, Tom.

Ground the pole by drilling in a screw at the bottom and attaching tghe wire there will get it done. If you can't reach an earth ground, take it to a known AC ground at an outlet nearby. Check that it is at ground, though, since some house wirers here in Arkansas get a little confused some times as to what goes where,what went where and why.
 

safetyobc

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VernM said:
A discone works a very great deal better with an earth ground to its base, Tom.

Ground the pole by drilling in a screw at the bottom and attaching tghe wire there will get it done. If you can't reach an earth ground, take it to a known AC ground at an outlet nearby. Check that it is at ground, though, since some house wirers here in Arkansas get a little confused some times as to what goes where,what went where and why.

lol, Ain't that the truth. I think I'll take it to earth ground to prevent any electrical interference in my signals. I got plenty of ground wire.

Thanks for the comments guys.

matt
 

RISC777

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Grounding

safetyobc said:
I think I'll take it to earth ground to prevent any electrical interference in my signals. I got plenty of ground wire.
Matt, I'm stealing words from someone else here (plegurize...correct spelling?..and hopefully they don't get too angry with me) -- "The National Electrical Code (NEC) requires the ground wire not to be less than 6AWG copper and all earthing rods to be tied together and connected to the neutral bus inside the electrical service entrance panel with the same. This reduces the difference in potential between them during a lightning strike which can be in the multi-kilovolt range. Also: Avoid sharp bends, lightning can leave the conductor at those points causing a flashover to whatever alternate path to earth it can find."

But it's your house, your install. It'll be in the attic, so who will see it? But safety is the point. Don't want your domicile burning down around you, especially when you're asleep or out of town, at work, etc.
 

TooLate

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Discone grounding

RISC777,
Your quote raises some interesting questions about my own set up.

Got a good freestanding tower with the first section planted 4 ft into ground inside a 4ft cube of concrete. No sooner got it up and operating (SuperScanner CB Antenna for commuting purposes to work) than a June thunderboomer took out the SC, and a bunch of stuff in the house. Got all fixed or replaced, replaced SC with new SC and added a discone scanner on standoff 3/4 up the tower. All I had and could find and afford at the time was RoMex left over from a recent remodel for the additional grounding. Ran one full insulated (other than connection points) run of Rom. from each of the antennas to copper rods pounded into the ground outside the concrete base...all 3 wires per run are connected to a rod. Called the wrecker to hoist the 60+ft assembly back up and voilla (sp)...within a couple of months... another strike on the SC. This time it only knocked out one of the elements on the SC CB.

Called the electrician that we had wire the addition to the house and his as well as a couple of second opinions is that the tower is now grounded TOO WELL and has become an easy target...a lightening rod if you will.

We're in the MidWest in Tornado Alley so thunder and lightening are commonplace. Is there anything I can do now and from the ground (since it's a couple hundred $ for the wrecker each time (2) for a takedown and put up) that will help divert lightening? All we do now is leave the CB disconnected (don't use it anyway) and pull plugs etc on the scanner/ant at the first distant rumble.

Do you think it is the grounding setup or might it be that the SC model has an electric "selection box" both up on the antenna and in the house that is live with low voltage anytime the radio and antenna are on...could this be the "attraction" or was it truly the "over grounded" setup?

I've wondered this for over 10 years... All well read and experienced levels input is encouraged.

tl
 

fmon

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VernM said:
No. The ground should attach directly to the antenna mounting hardware, or the mast pole (metal).
This pdf will illustrate the "hardware" with several points for connection.
 
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RISC777

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TooLate said:
RISC777,
Your quote raises some interesting questions about my own set up.

Got a good freestanding tower with the first section planted 4 ft into ground inside a 4ft cube of concrete. No sooner got it up and operating (SuperScanner CB Antenna for commuting purposes to work) than a June thunderboomer took out the SC, and a bunch of stuff in the house. Got all fixed or replaced, replaced SC with new SC and added a discone scanner on standoff 3/4 up the tower. All I had and could find and afford at the time was RoMex left over from a recent remodel for the additional grounding. Ran one full insulated (other than connection points) run of Rom. from each of the antennas to copper rods pounded into the ground outside the concrete base...all 3 wires per run are connected to a rod. Called the wrecker to hoist the 60+ft assembly back up and voilla (sp)...within a couple of months... another strike on the SC. This time it only knocked out one of the elements on the SC CB.

Called the electrician that we had wire the addition to the house and his as well as a couple of second opinions is that the tower is now grounded TOO WELL and has become an easy target...a lightening rod if you will.

We're in the MidWest in Tornado Alley so thunder and lightening are commonplace. Is there anything I can do now and from the ground (since it's a couple hundred $ for the wrecker each time (2) for a takedown and put up) that will help divert lightening? All we do now is leave the CB disconnected (don't use it anyway) and pull plugs etc on the scanner/ant at the first distant rumble.

Do you think it is the grounding setup or might it be that the SC model has an electric "selection box" both up on the antenna and in the house that is live with low voltage anytime the radio and antenna are on...could this be the "attraction" or was it truly the "over grounded" setup?

I've wondered this for over 10 years... All well read and experienced levels input is encouraged.

tl
First, I don't hold a Master ticket as an electrician. (That's why I stole another member's words before. :) )

Lightning as I understand is the attraction of positive to negative, or negative to positive, whichever "direction" it goes. Lightning does go up. So there's a difference at ground, in earth, to what is in the air / atmosphere. Such as static electricity in your house, like, when you're in your socks, it's going to "go somewhere."

Did the electrician or the other second opinions look at if the mast's ground is tied to the house's electric service neutral bus?

How many total rods are connected to the mast, and how long / deep are they? (Three rods?)

One thing I do differently, be it by code or not, is I ground my masts, versus running the ground line(s) to antenna(s). Anything attached to the masts are grounded. All masts are connected, the ground run goes to an 8' rod with #6 bare solid copper and is connected to the buildings service ground.

To answer what you can do from the ground is get some #6 copper and ground the mast (to the ground rods). If in fact you've created or ended up with a lightning rod, doing that won't make the problem worse. But by doing that you've got a larger path for any future lightning strikes to get to earth ground.

To get an answer to the question, "Is it grounded too well?" That's out of my scope. It's possible that it's an attractor now, a lightning rod in effect. My own thought if it were my situation would be - do I invest in setting up a true lightning rod that would be designed to "attract" lightning more than my mast?

Lightning is lightning. I've seen it blow a driveway up, run into the house on TV coax and phone line, run out a power line to a shed and blow it up, but damaged nothing internal to the house (other than the two crisped wires).

*maybe kb2vxa or someone else with more knowledge and experience will respond also*
 

RISC777

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Matt - Grounding

safetyobc said:
...my plan is to mount this antenna in my attic.
Matt: Using fmon's .PDf as reference, take a ground clamp from a hardware store and put it around part #2, the support tube. Run some #6, or maybe some #8, to an electric box in the attic, which you should have a number available to have access to. Connect that ground run to the ground in one of those boxes. If you're going to put the support tube onto any kind of metal pipe, the ground connection can go to it instead of the support tube. If you're going to mount it to wood and not use any other metal, the ground would need to go to the antenna.

Cable? There's a couple of good loss charts (besides the individual mfr.s spec.s) to go by, distance and frequency(ies) to be monitored, and how much you'll spend to get the best cable to meet the need.
 

fmon

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RISC777 said:
Matt: Using fmon's .PDf as reference, take a ground clamp from a hardware store and put it around part #2, the support tube. Run some #6, or maybe some #8, to an electric box in the attic, which you should have a number available to have access to.
The problem with this configuration is that electric boxes throughout the house are served at best by #12 wire. For radio protection, I think you'd be better off using an isolator in the coax feed and ignore ground if you don't have a mast. That is unless as suggested earlier, you have the ability to run #6 copper nearly straight down to a copper ground rod.
 

RISC777

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fmon said:
The problem with this configuration is that electric boxes throughout the house are served at best by #12 wire. For radio protection, I think you'd be better off using an isolator in the coax feed and ignore ground if you don't have a mast. That is unless as suggested earlier, you have the ability to run #6 copper nearly straight down to a copper ground rod.
#8 or #10 isn't too large, and you can get lugs for smaller gauge wire to go to a screw down point in a box, especially a ceiling box for a light fixture or a ceiling fan. Crimp it onto the copper and put the screw through it. Most newer attics have a light run when the structure was built, so there may be a switch box or a light fixture right handy. It's within the house (the antenna) and not exterior, so of course it could be used non-grounded (but I never said that, not really). The cable from the antenna to the scanner is a path for lightning if the scanner is running on AC power. If it's on batteries and not plugged into the wall, no path.

Every hit I've had that killed anything has always been through the telephone line. Never once (yet) through power, cable TV, etc. Never a direct hit either. At the same time I use APC surge protectors or UPSs on everything due to quality and their lifetime replace/repair guaranty.
 

fmon

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The whole purpose of using #6 wire for grounding is to provide a large conductive source four routing a lightning hit. Strapping this #6 to an attic box with #12 wire which comes from the buildings electrical panel ground is inadequate because the real ground becomes the much smaller #12 for routing the lightning. Also this configuration is likely in violation of code.

IOW, the #6 wire is hazardous, because it provides a route for lightning only to the attic box, where the smaller #12 takes its place for going to ground. What may occur instead if lightning hits the antenna, is the attic box will short across to the connection point of the two ground wires (#6 & #12) to the hot line in the box. This should cause the fuse/breaker in the service panel to open, but may very well simultaneously spark a fire at that attic box because that is where the lightning terminated.

If the purpose is to improve antenna performance, then use #12 wire to the attic box.
 

MacombMonitor

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fmon said:
The whole purpose of using #6 wire for grounding is to provide a large conductive source four routing a lightning hit. Strapping this #6 to an attic box with #12 wire which comes from the buildings electrical panel ground is inadequate because the real ground becomes the much smaller #12 for routing the lightning. Also this configuration is likely in violation of code.

IOW, the #6 wire is hazardous, because it provides a route for lightning only to the attic box, where the smaller #12 takes its place for going to ground. What may occur instead if lightning hits the antenna, is the attic box will short across to the connection point of the two ground wires (#6 & #12) to the hot line in the box. This should cause the fuse/breaker in the service panel to open, but may very well simultaneously spark a fire at that attic box because that is where the lightning terminated.

If the purpose is to improve antenna performance, then use #12 wire to the attic box.

So what would happen if he didn't even have the antenna, and lighting came though his roof and struck the electrical boxes with 12GA ground wire?
 

brwkem

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Will the attic antenna attrack more lightning?
Peak of the roof higher point.
If not then why have a ground?
 
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