DMR For Public Safety

[krazybob]

Thank you. Been a long night. TDMA.

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[exkalibur]

There is no federal funding for DMR, only for P25. The AES256 stipulation is a recent change required because Motorola was pushing an inexpensive, yet proprietary encryption feature that was thwarting interoperability.

The federal funding does little to close the price gap between DMR and P25. You pay through the nose for P25.

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Technology has extremely little to do with interoperability. Egos of Police Chiefs however...

The only reason P25 gets grants is because the P25 consortium has politicians in their back pocket. P25 is demonstrably inferior to other digital technologies and is by some accounts, vastly outdated. Why does it keep chooching along? $$$ of course.

 

[krazybob]

Technology has extremely little to do with interoperability. Egos of Police Chiefs however...

The only reason P25 gets grants is because the P25 consortium has politicians in their back pocket. P25 is demonstrably inferior to other digital technologies and is by some accounts, vastly outdated. Why does it keep chooching along? $$$ of course.

I think that's what I tried to say pretty clearly and was dismissed. P25 is outdated. Municipalities around the country don't have the money to go to phase II. The government is trying to leverage 4G LTE and a combination of 700 / 800 MHz down the throats of municipalities. You know damn well Motorola is in there lobbying for all they've got. Interoperability is one thing but interoperability during a Regional Emergency is another. As I mentioned in a prior response how is 4G LTE going to work if a Katrina type event were to occur again? DMR might even add and added complexity for First Responders during such an event. Who the heck knows.

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[exkalibur]

The problem is, particularly in the United States, you have countless small agencies/volunteer FDs operating on a shoestring budget who are expected to shell out a small fortune for radios that are absolutely not in their best interest. Why should a small rural fire department be forced to get a P25 APX radio with full trunking and AES encryption for $7,000 when a simple Kenwood analog portable for a few hundred would do just as well (if not better)?

Things like FirstNET are an absolute joke and will fail. Hell, it's already failed and it isn't even built.

 

[N4KVE]

Why should a small rural fire department be forced to get a P25 APX radio with full trunking and AES encryption for $7,000 when a simple Kenwood analog portable for a few hundred would do just as well (if not better)?

There should be a process where these small rural counties/cities on a budget can get the XTS/XTL 2500/5000 radios coming out of service from the huge counties/cities. Sunny Communications sells lots of these "retired radios" to small counties/cities.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

There should be a process where these small rural counties/cities on a budget can get the XTS/XTL 2500/5000 radios coming out of service from the huge counties/cities. Sunny Communications sells lots of these "retired radios" to small counties/cities.

That would be terrific if Motorola 's planned obsolescence department would get the memo.


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[michaelstephen]

how is 4G LTE going to work if a Katrina type event were to occur again? DMR might even add and added complexity for First Responders during such an event. Who the heck knows.

Hi Bob,

I fully agree the plan won't work because of funding. As everyone else has said, no one can justify a $7000 APX when a $200 Kenwood will do. That being said, in-case you were interested in the plan for a Katrina scenario: they would deploy COWs (cell on wheels), that are configured for FirstNet. Until those can deploy to replace failed fixed network equipment, firstnet is designed to use 700/800 in a mesh - so all the first responder vehicles become nodes - and hopefully the mt. top repeaters stay online. Teams currently have mobile p25 repeaters with Satellite POTS (bgan) to link them. In the new scenario, mobile COW with higher bandwidth Satellite data to link them.



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[ResQguy]

Actually, APCO made P25 the standard for public safety, hence the P in P25, which is fully written out as APCO-25.

The P in P25 stands for "Project", just like it did in P16 and now up to P43.

https://www.apcointl.org/about-apco/apco-projects.html

 

[GTR8000]

The P in P25 stands for "Project", just like it did in P16 and now up to P43.

https://www.apcointl.org/about-apco/apco-projects.html

That's what happens when you post at 2 in the morning, half asleep. APCO Project 25 is what I should've written, naturally. :roll:

 

[ResQguy]

That's what happens when you post at 2 in the morning, half asleep. APCO Project 25 is what I should've written, naturally. :roll:

The Keurig helps at these times. Cheers

 

[jim202]

And after seeing, hearing and learning about what is out there in the DMR world at IWCE this year that MSI won't sell in the USA, despite offering it in other (non-US) markets, exist including true digital simulcast, AES-256, and multi-mode operation (yes even P-25 phase 1, NXDN and analog all in one box)...for about 1/3rd of what an MSI solution costs....

It's amazing that the US DMR market is kept back. Hopefully this will change. DMR for public safety? Fair question. The competition around the world have several successful multi-site deployments at far less than what a single site of my Astro 25 7.14 cost to implement.

After seeing the Karios stuff at IWCE...I am amazed at how far behind this market it is.

The reason they won't sell it in the US is that it would kill all their current sales activity with higher cost equipment. So the bottom line going to the bank would be effected. The company has a really slick sales force that only look out for one thing. Just how large their deposit is into their bank account from what they can sell to unsuspecting customers. The BS involved here from the sales teams will require at least a 6 foot tall ladder to keep your head above the flow.

 

[jim202]

There should be a process where these small rural counties/cities on a budget can get the XTS/XTL 2500/5000 radios coming out of service from the huge counties/cities. Sunny Communications sells lots of these "retired radios" to small counties/cities.

Many of these radios coming out of service never end up in the used market. They are hauled off to a shredder and made into scrap. I have tried on a number of occasions to try and get my hands on some of these pulled radios. Nope, they are accounted for by serial number and then fed into the metal shredder. makes me cry when i see it happening.

Same thing with the military excess radio equipment. Have seen brand new R390 receivers out at a dump site back in the 70's. They off load loaded the receivers from a truck, line them up on the ground about 5 feet apart and run a D9 dozzer over them. Then roll them all into a pit and cover them up with dirt. The tape wasn't even broke on the cardboard boxes from the company that sold the receivers new. I tried and pleaded with the man in charge to just let me yank one of the boxes out of the line. No way would he allow that to happen.

Such is life in the radio market in the US. And it's our tax money footing the bill.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Many of these radios coming out of service never end up in the used market. They are hauled off to a shredder and made into scrap. I have tried on a number of occasions to try and get my hands on some of these pulled radios. Nope, they are accounted for by serial number and then fed into the metal shredder. makes me cry when i see it happening.

Same thing with the military excess radio equipment. Have seen brand new R390 receivers out at a dump site back in the 70's. They off load loaded the receivers from a truck, line them up on the ground about 5 feet apart and run a D9 dozzer over them. Then roll them all into a pit and cover them up with dirt. The tape wasn't even broke on the cardboard boxes from the company that sold the receivers new. I tried and pleaded with the man in charge to just let me yank one of the boxes out of the line. No way would he allow that to happen.

Such is life in the radio market in the US. And it's our tax money footing the bill.

True, for a lot of the major contracts, Motorola will provide a discount in the bottom line to take back the old radios. Some are used by Motorola depot to service existing contracts, but the majority are scrapped.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I think that's what I tried to say pretty clearly and was dismissed. P25 is outdated. Municipalities around the country don't have the money to go to phase II. The government is trying to leverage 4G LTE and a combination of 700 / 800 MHz down the throats of municipalities. You know damn well Motorola is in there lobbying for all they've got. Interoperability is one thing but interoperability during a Regional Emergency is another. As I mentioned in a prior response how is 4G LTE going to work if a Katrina type event were to occur again? DMR might even add and added complexity for First Responders during such an event. Who the heck knows.

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P25 isn't all that out dated. Compare it to TETRA and it's almost the same age but available in more American power outputs and of course, VHF. Did Phase 2 leave out some features that could've made it better (such as TDMA conventional operation), yes. P25 has been built on the premise of backwards compatibility with features such as mixed mode operation (something DMR currently does not do), P16 comparability...of course the vendors built to their specific P16 systems, Phase 2's backwards compatibility with Phase 1 equipment. Of course, Phase 2 does also have some upgrades such as the 12,000 bps downlink and 6,000 bps uplink (compared to Phase 1's 9600 bps up/down and DMR's 9600 bps downlink/4320 bps uplink). As far as LTE goes...it all depends on how redundant systems are. Motorola loves to build redundancy into their systems but not everyone is willing to pay for it. The cellular carriers have also learned a lot since Katrina, Rita and Ike. Then again, a plan is only valid up until the first shot is fired.

The problem is, particularly in the United States, you have countless small agencies/volunteer FDs operating on a shoestring budget who are expected to shell out a small fortune for radios that are absolutely not in their best interest. Why should a small rural fire department be forced to get a P25 APX radio with full trunking and AES encryption for $7,000 when a simple Kenwood analog portable for a few hundred would do just as well (if not better)?

Things like FirstNET are an absolute joke and will fail. Hell, it's already failed and it isn't even built.

They aren't at all expected to shell out the money. I actually just got finished upgrading several small volunteer departments to Motorola from Kenwood. Of course, they happen to be located in a multi-jurisdictional trunking (airtime) system. They started on a 10 year replacement plan and initially purchased Kenwood's in 2012...the performance (from both portables and mobiles) was so poor they are pushing everything out in favor of lower tier APX subscribers. The $1500 Kenwoods they purchased were replaced by $2400 Motorolas. The irony, they would've saved money initially purchasing Astro 25 Motorola's at $2500 each as they would still be using them.

There should be a process where these small rural counties/cities on a budget can get the XTS/XTL 2500/5000 radios coming out of service from the huge counties/cities. Sunny Communications sells lots of these "retired radios" to small counties/cities.

I can actually think of 5 rural Texas counties who do this off the top of my head. The county purchases new radios for paid services and sends the old radios down to volunteer services. For example in one, they are running Harris radios for paid services and Motorola's for their volunteers (all P25 capable now though it's not currently used). Another, the county is running P25 conventional (mixed mode receive, digital transmit for subscribers) with their infrastructure in mixed mode operation. The small towns can either run digital or analog on the county system. As they gather the funds to purchase digital, the analog side becomes quieter and quieter.

 

[rescue161]

I can tell you in our shop that we align, repair and refurbish our radios until they can't be repaired and then we send them to the depot. If the board is physically damaged and the depot won't repair, then we order a replacement board as it's cheaper than a whole new radio. We only let go of equipment once the manufacturer stops supplying parts. We make sure to get our money's worth. We still had a bunch of Syntor X9000 UHF trunking 110 Watt radios up until 2 years ago.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

(snip)
Motorola loves to build redundancy into their systems but not everyone is willing to pay for it. The cellular carriers have also learned a lot since Katrina, Rita and Ike. Then again, a plan is only valid up until the first shot is fired.

(snip).

You can build a lot of redundancy into a DMR system at a fraction of the price. And DMR is backward compatible to analog FM. There should be no disagreement there.

P25 really falls short on scaling to small conventional systems. No phase 2 in conventional, expensive hardware, complicated and overly complex networking requirements.

If APCO really wanted to do something solid for their constituency they would encourage radio vendors to add DMR mode to their P25 subscribers.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

You can build a lot of redundancy into a DMR system at a fraction of the price. And DMR is backward compatible to analog FM. There should be no disagreement there.

P25 really falls short on scaling to small conventional systems. No phase 2 in conventional, expensive hardware, complicated and overly complex networking requirements.

If APCO really wanted to do something solid for their constituency they would encourage radio vendors to add DMR mode to their P25 subscribers.

You can build just as much redundancy into DMR if you know how to. I'll agree there.

DMR has some backwards compatibity with analog but to say it is as fully backwards compatable as P25 Phase 1 is an understatement. Analog operation capability is a requirement for P25 equipment. It is not for DMR. You can, with some manufacturers, link two DMR repeaters together, run one in analog and one in digital and have all analog traffic transposed to a DMR talk group. Some DMR repeaters will even run mixed mode operation. I've not yet found a DMR subscriber capable of mixed mode receive on any given channel.

I can think of several manufacturers who's networking requirements are no different than the networking requirements of a generic DMR system...

 

[KevinC]

They aren't at all expected to shell out the money. I actually just got finished upgrading several small volunteer departments to Motorola from Kenwood. Of course, they happen to be located in a multi-jurisdictional trunking (airtime) system. They started on a 10 year replacement plan and initially purchased Kenwood's in 2012...the performance (from both portables and mobiles) was so poor they are pushing everything out in favor of lower tier APX subscribers. The $1500 Kenwoods they purchased were replaced by $2400 Motorolas. The irony, they would've saved money initially purchasing Astro 25 Motorola's at $2500 each as they would still be using them.

So all those FD's in Western Counties finally got rid of the Kenwood's?

 

[Project25_MASTR]

So all those FD's in Western Counties finally got rid of the Kenwood's?

They are working on it still but they are being traded or phased out.


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[KevinC]

They are working on it still but they are being traded or phased out.


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Ok, I don't know if it was because they were Gen 1 radios or what, but those things were absolutely awful as far as roaming went, At one point they would switch sites on a 1 dB change is signal level (which meant they were constantly switching sites).